This page is no longer maintained — Please continue to the home page at www.scala-lang.org

Let's stop the language bashing, please

13 replies
odersky
Joined: 2008-07-29,
User offline. Last seen 45 weeks 6 days ago.

Recently there have been quite a few new languages coming out on the
JVM. Kotlin, Ceylon, Gosu, to name but a few. I think that's great.
Experimentation is good, and people who try out one new language will
have a tendency to try out others.

What's not so good is that some Scala advocates have been a little bit
too aggressive/defensive on the subject (soc, smcj, but sometimes also
others). There is absolutely no point in attacking a new programming
language. It will just make people hate you, and by extension the
language you are defending. I know that sometimes Scala advocates get
upset if other language communities ``sell'' their language by
comparing with Scala. They should see it as an acknowledgement
instead: Obviously Scala is the frontrunner in mindshare for
alternative JVM languages, otherwise there would not be so many people
comparing their favorite language to it!

Sometimes the comparisons might look unfair to Scala, and then I am
thankful for people who respond by putting misconceptions right
and defending the language vigorously, highlighting its good sides.
But let's not do it by putting other languages down, please!

Thanks

H-star Development
Joined: 2010-04-14,
User offline. Last seen 2 years 26 weeks ago.
Re: Let's stop the language bashing, please

Am 14.02.2012 19:31, schrieb martin odersky:
> Recently there have been quite a few new languages coming out on the
> JVM. Kotlin, Ceylon, Gosu, to name but a few. I think that's great.
> Experimentation is good, and people who try out one new language will
> have a tendency to try out others.
>
> What's not so good is that some Scala advocates have been a little bit
> too aggressive/defensive on the subject (soc, smcj, but sometimes also
> others). There is absolutely no point in attacking a new programming
> language. It will just make people hate you, and by extension the
> language you are defending. I know that sometimes Scala advocates get
> upset if other language communities ``sell'' their language by
> comparing with Scala. They should see it as an acknowledgement
> instead: Obviously Scala is the frontrunner in mindshare for
> alternative JVM languages, otherwise there would not be so many people
> comparing their favorite language to it!
>
> Sometimes the comparisons might look unfair to Scala, and then I am
> thankful for people who respond by putting misconceptions right
> and defending the language vigorously, highlighting its good sides.
> But let's not do it by putting other languages down, please!
>
> Thanks
>

Simon Ochsenreither
Joined: 2011-07-17,
User offline. Last seen 42 years 45 weeks ago.
Re: Let's stop the language bashing, please
You're absolutely right. Sorry!
Cédric Beust ♔
Joined: 2011-06-17,
User offline. Last seen 42 years 45 weeks ago.
Re: Let's stop the language bashing, please
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 1:06 PM, HamsterofDeath <h-star [at] gmx [dot] de> wrote:
should i get furious at someone picking java over *random better
language*, i calm myself by thinking that i don't get angry at a monkey
that uses a stone to open a coconut instead of a more efficient tool -
and there really is not that much of a difference ;)

So let me get this straight, Martin calls for some tolerance and respect toward people who use another language than Scala and you agree with him by comparing Java users to monkeys? And I bet you think that the smiley is good enough, that everyone will understand the sarcasm, so it's okay, right?
This is exactly the problem, you probably don't even realize that you have this attitude, much less its impact on the people who surround you.
The bottom line is that the competence and degree of expertise of professionals in this industry has nothing to do with the kind of tools they use. You'll find very knowledgeable people as much as douchebags that use Scala, Java, Perl or assembly language.
-- Cédric
H-star Development
Joined: 2010-04-14,
User offline. Last seen 2 years 26 weeks ago.
Re: Let's stop the language bashing, please
Am 14.02.2012 23:13, schrieb Cédric Beust ♔:
CAOphgJD_sqdbvZRthOQnMfM_h86ZOY_ccfH7Xh67v7t9ahz7XA [at] mail [dot] gmail [dot] com" type="cite"> On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 1:06 PM, HamsterofDeath <h-star [at] gmx [dot] de" rel="nofollow">h-star [at] gmx [dot] de> wrote:
should i get furious at someone picking java over *random better
language*, i calm myself by thinking that i don't get angry at a monkey
that uses a stone to open a coconut instead of a more efficient tool -
and there really is not that much of a difference ;)

So let me get this straight, Martin calls for some tolerance and respect toward people who use another language than Scala and you agree with him by comparing Java users to monkeys? And I bet you think that the smiley is good enough, that everyone will understand the sarcasm, so it's okay, right?
This is exactly the problem, you probably don't even realize that you have this attitude, much less its impact on the people who surround you.
The bottom line is that the competence and degree of expertise of professionals in this industry has nothing to do with the kind of tools they use. You'll find very knowledgeable people as much as douchebags that use Scala, Java, Perl or assembly language.
--  Cédric
let me rephrase:
some people prefer java because it fits better to their way of thinking than *random other language*. some prefer it because of the huge community, some because of the tool support which is top notch. some are just too lazy to learn a second language. everyone picks his or her favourite for various reasons.
actually, i DO use java at work. much more than scala. it's just not my favourite language, and to me, it is a less efficient tool. we constantly bash each other's tools and methods which sounds counter-productive at first, but both sides get their weak points exposed which is good.
on my path through the programming world, i have met more developers being sarcastic rather than very serious so in general, i except sarcasm to be understood correctly as "not so serious - but there is a truth inside" by the majority.
Jesper Nordenberg
Joined: 2008-12-27,
User offline. Last seen 42 years 45 weeks ago.
Re: Let's stop the language bashing, please

Some people just aren't intelligent enough to understand sarcasm ;)

Seriously though, I quite enjoy reading language fights as long as the
tone is not too aggressive, all involved parties are well informed and
can backup their subjective opinions with reasonably well-founded
arguments. And I think most people understand that a few random
individuals doesn't speak officially for the entire Scala community.

/Jesper Nordenberg

HamsterofDeath skrev 2012-02-15 07:45:
> Am 14.02.2012 23:13, schrieb Cédric Beust ♔:
>> On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 1:06 PM, HamsterofDeath > > wrote:
>>
>> should i get furious at someone picking java over *random better
>> language*, i calm myself by thinking that i don't get angry at a
>> monkey
>> that uses a stone to open a coconut instead of a more efficient tool -
>> and there really is not that much of a difference ;)
>>
>>
>> So let me get this straight, Martin calls for some tolerance and
>> respect toward people who use another language than Scala and you
>> agree with him by comparing Java users to monkeys? And I bet you think
>> that the smiley is good enough, that everyone will understand the
>> sarcasm, so it's okay, right?
>>
>> This is exactly the problem, you probably don't even realize that you
>> have this attitude, much less its impact on the people who surround you.
>>
>> The bottom line is that the competence and degree of expertise of
>> professionals in this industry has nothing to do with the kind of
>> tools they use. You'll find very knowledgeable people as much as
>> douchebags that use Scala, Java, Perl or assembly language.
>>
>> --
>> Cédric
>>
> let me rephrase:
> some people prefer java because it fits better to their way of thinking
> than *random other language*. some prefer it because of the huge
> community, some because of the tool support which is top notch. some are
> just too lazy to learn a second language. everyone picks his or her
> favourite for various reasons.
> actually, i DO use java at work. much more than scala. it's just not my
> favourite language, and to me, it is a less efficient tool. we
> constantly bash each other's tools and methods which sounds
> counter-productive at first, but both sides get their weak points
> exposed which is good.
> on my path through the programming world, i have met more developers
> being sarcastic rather than very serious so in general, i except sarcasm
> to be understood correctly as "not so serious - but there is a truth
> inside" by the majority.

kolotyluk
Joined: 2010-06-04,
User offline. Last seen 5 weeks 15 hours ago.
Re: Let's stop the language bashing, please
On 2012-02-14 2:13 PM, Cédric Beust ♔ wrote:
CAOphgJD_sqdbvZRthOQnMfM_h86ZOY_ccfH7Xh67v7t9ahz7XA [at] mail [dot] gmail [dot] com" type="cite"> On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 1:06 PM, HamsterofDeath <h-star [at] gmx [dot] de" rel="nofollow">h-star [at] gmx [dot] de> wrote:
should i get furious at someone picking java over *random better
language*, i calm myself by thinking that i don't get angry at a monkey
that uses a stone to open a coconut instead of a more efficient tool -
and there really is not that much of a difference ;)

So let me get this straight, Martin calls for some tolerance and respect toward people who use another language than Scala and you agree with him by comparing Java users to monkeys? And I bet you think that the smiley is good enough, that everyone will understand the sarcasm, so it's okay, right?
This is exactly the problem, you probably don't even realize that you have this attitude, much less its impact on the people who surround you.
The bottom line is that the competence and degree of expertise of professionals in this industry has nothing to do with the kind of tools they use. You'll find very knowledgeable people as much as douchebags that use Scala, Java, Perl or assembly language.
--  Cédric
Can we at least bash code monkeys? ;-)

Seriously I do not really think of anyone in this forum as a code monkey as there is rarely anything random about their attempts to write good code, regardless of their favorite language.

Java is still my main programming language and I am exceedingly good at it, and there are tons of people even better at Java than I am, but I have become an even better Java programmer by participating in this forum, so I really appreciate Cédric's words.

Cheers, Eric
Chris Marshall
Joined: 2009-06-17,
User offline. Last seen 44 weeks 3 days ago.
RE: Let's stop the language bashing, please
It's no wonder you're so good at Java; presumably you were learning it whilst everyone else was attending the modesty class?

Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 12:24:11 -0800
From: eric [dot] kolotyluk [at] gmail [dot] com
To: scala-debate [at] googlegroups [dot] com
Subject: Re: [scala-debate] Let's stop the language bashing, please

On 2012-02-14 2:13 PM, Cédric Beust ♔ wrote:
CAOphgJD_sqdbvZRthOQnMfM_h86ZOY_ccfH7Xh67v7t9ahz7XA [at] mail [dot] gmail [dot] com"> On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 1:06 PM, HamsterofDeath <h-star [at] gmx [dot] de> wrote:
should i get furious at someone picking java over *random better
language*, i calm myself by thinking that i don't get angry at a monkey
that uses a stone to open a coconut instead of a more efficient tool -
and there really is not that much of a difference ;)

So let me get this straight, Martin calls for some tolerance and respect toward people who use another language than Scala and you agree with him by comparing Java users to monkeys? And I bet you think that the smiley is good enough, that everyone will understand the sarcasm, so it's okay, right?
This is exactly the problem, you probably don't even realize that you have this attitude, much less its impact on the people who surround you.
The bottom line is that the competence and degree of expertise of professionals in this industry has nothing to do with the kind of tools they use. You'll find very knowledgeable people as much as douchebags that use Scala, Java, Perl or assembly language.
--  Cédric
Can we at least bash code monkeys? ;-)

Seriously I do not really think of anyone in this forum as a code monkey as there is rarely anything random about their attempts to write good code, regardless of their favorite language.

Java is still my main programming language and I am exceedingly good at it, and there are tons of people even better at Java than I am, but I have become an even better Java programmer by participating in this forum, so I really appreciate Cédric's words.

Cheers, Eric
Alex Repain
Joined: 2010-07-27,
User offline. Last seen 1 year 31 weeks ago.
Re: Let's stop the language bashing, please


2012/2/16 Chris Marshall <oxbow_lakes [at] hotmail [dot] com>
It's no wonder you're so good at Java; presumably you were learning it whilst everyone else was attending the modesty class?

WHAT YA THINK YA BETTER THAN ME ??

Hey, I've seen worse pretentiousness. Besides, he gets the benefit of the doubt ... Someone Java street contest him to prove him wrong :).


Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 12:24:11 -0800
From: eric [dot] kolotyluk [at] gmail [dot] com
To: scala-debate [at] googlegroups [dot] com
Subject: Re: [scala-debate] Let's stop the language bashing, please

On 2012-02-14 2:13 PM, Cédric Beust ♔ wrote:
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 1:06 PM, HamsterofDeath <h-star [at] gmx [dot] de> wrote:
should i get furious at someone picking java over *random better
language*, i calm myself by thinking that i don't get angry at a monkey
that uses a stone to open a coconut instead of a more efficient tool -
and there really is not that much of a difference ;)

So let me get this straight, Martin calls for some tolerance and respect toward people who use another language than Scala and you agree with him by comparing Java users to monkeys? And I bet you think that the smiley is good enough, that everyone will understand the sarcasm, so it's okay, right?
This is exactly the problem, you probably don't even realize that you have this attitude, much less its impact on the people who surround you.
The bottom line is that the competence and degree of expertise of professionals in this industry has nothing to do with the kind of tools they use. You'll find very knowledgeable people as much as douchebags that use Scala, Java, Perl or assembly language.
--  Cédric
Can we at least bash code monkeys? ;-)

Seriously I do not really think of anyone in this forum as a code monkey as there is rarely anything random about their attempts to write good code, regardless of their favorite language.

Java is still my main programming language and I am exceedingly good at it, and there are tons of people even better at Java than I am, but I have become an even better Java programmer by participating in this forum, so I really appreciate Cédric's words.

Cheers, Eric

kolotyluk
Joined: 2010-06-04,
User offline. Last seen 5 weeks 15 hours ago.
Re: Let's stop the language bashing, please
lol

No - I am exceedingly good at it because I have been writing code since 1970, and Java is simply one of many languages I know well. As I said, there are tons of people even better at Java than I.

My hope is to become exceedingly good at Scala before my coding career is over, but I personally find Scala a lot more challenging to master than Java.

By the way, I am still apt to use a butter knife instead of a screw driver, especially when it is near by, and appropriate (enough) for the task at hand. On larger projects I am more apt to go dig out the tool box and find the right screw driver for the job. When the project gets large enough I will then use a cordless power drill with a screw tip (and never, never, never a flat-head tip).

Language choice is not only a matter of preference, elegance and power - it is also determined by context. When my context allows me to use Scala more, I probably will use Scala more.

Cheers, Eric

P.S. I apologize to all those code monkeys out there

On 2012-02-16 1:44 PM, Chris Marshall wrote:
COL109-W32156E35AC94F4289FADB08D620 [at] phx [dot] gbl" type="cite"> It's no wonder you're so good at Java; presumably you were learning it whilst everyone else was attending the modesty class?

Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 12:24:11 -0800
From: eric [dot] kolotyluk [at] gmail [dot] com
To: scala-debate [at] googlegroups [dot] com
Subject: Re: [scala-debate] Let's stop the language bashing, please

On 2012-02-14 2:13 PM, Cédric Beust ♔ wrote:
CAOphgJD_sqdbvZRthOQnMfM_h86ZOY_ccfH7Xh67v7t9ahz7XA [at] mail [dot] gmail [dot] com"> On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 1:06 PM, HamsterofDeath <h-star [at] gmx [dot] de" rel="nofollow">h-star [at] gmx [dot] de> wrote:
should i get furious at someone picking java over *random better
language*, i calm myself by thinking that i don't get angry at a monkey
that uses a stone to open a coconut instead of a more efficient tool -
and there really is not that much of a difference ;)

So let me get this straight, Martin calls for some tolerance and respect toward people who use another language than Scala and you agree with him by comparing Java users to monkeys? And I bet you think that the smiley is good enough, that everyone will understand the sarcasm, so it's okay, right?
This is exactly the problem, you probably don't even realize that you have this attitude, much less its impact on the people who surround you.
The bottom line is that the competence and degree of expertise of professionals in this industry has nothing to do with the kind of tools they use. You'll find very knowledgeable people as much as douchebags that use Scala, Java, Perl or assembly language.
--  Cédric
Can we at least bash code monkeys? ;-)

Seriously I do not really think of anyone in this forum as a code monkey as there is rarely anything random about their attempts to write good code, regardless of their favorite language.

Java is still my main programming language and I am exceedingly good at it, and there are tons of people even better at Java than I am, but I have become an even better Java programmer by participating in this forum, so I really appreciate Cédric's words.

Cheers, Eric
Naftoli Gugenheim
Joined: 2008-12-17,
User offline. Last seen 42 years 45 weeks ago.
Re: Let's stop the language bashing, please


On Friday, February 17, 2012, Eric Kolotyluk wrote:
lol

No - I am exceedingly good at it because I have been writing code since 1970, and Java is simply one of many languages I know well. As I said, there are tons of people even better at Java than I.


Incidentally, is English your main language?
kolotyluk
Joined: 2010-06-04,
User offline. Last seen 5 weeks 15 hours ago.
Re: Let's stop the language bashing, please
On 2012-02-19 9:56 PM, Naftoli Gugenheim wrote:
CANpg8PB+vFRMf1MtmiFBRCys_43Zdf77mX3VqSXcVH21vdEyAQ [at] mail [dot] gmail [dot] com" type="cite">

On Friday, February 17, 2012, Eric Kolotyluk wrote:
lol

No - I am exceedingly good at it because I have been writing code since 1970, and Java is simply one of many languages I know well. As I said, there are tons of people even better at Java than I.


Incidentally, is English your main language?
Yes, English is my only language - I am lousy at natural languages :-)

I did have to work on a FORTRAN program once written by French programmers. I could almost get by with the comments, but the variable names made no sense to me at all - lol

Cheers, Eric
Alex Repain
Joined: 2010-07-27,
User offline. Last seen 1 year 31 weeks ago.
Re: Let's stop the language bashing, please


2012/2/20 Eric Kolotyluk <eric [dot] kolotyluk [at] gmail [dot] com>
On 2012-02-19 9:56 PM, Naftoli Gugenheim wrote:


On Friday, February 17, 2012, Eric Kolotyluk wrote:
lol

No - I am exceedingly good at it because I have been writing code since 1970, and Java is simply one of many languages I know well. As I said, there are tons of people even better at Java than I.


Incidentally, is English your main language?
Yes, English is my only language - I am lousy at natural languages :-)

I did have to work on a FORTRAN program once written by French programmers. I could almost get by with the comments, but the variable names made no sense to me at all - lol

Yeah, we do program in french sometimes. It must be annoying for foreign readers, but if I may say, we aren't as frustrating as Japanese coders :D.

Alex


Cheers, Eric

kolotyluk
Joined: 2010-06-04,
User offline. Last seen 5 weeks 15 hours ago.
Re: Let's stop the language bashing, please
On 2012-02-20 7:39 AM, Alex Repain wrote:
CAMzeggGSh2bFcHjWc+UFLweGY9WDgsFDo-ecs6tMErZPrv6O7g [at] mail [dot] gmail [dot] com" type="cite">

2012/2/20 Eric Kolotyluk <eric [dot] kolotyluk [at] gmail [dot] com" rel="nofollow">eric [dot] kolotyluk [at] gmail [dot] com>
On 2012-02-19 9:56 PM, Naftoli Gugenheim wrote:


On Friday, February 17, 2012, Eric Kolotyluk wrote:
lol

No - I am exceedingly good at it because I have been writing code since 1970, and Java is simply one of many languages I know well. As I said, there are tons of people even better at Java than I.


Incidentally, is English your main language?
Yes, English is my only language - I am lousy at natural languages :-)

I did have to work on a FORTRAN program once written by French programmers. I could almost get by with the comments, but the variable names made no sense to me at all - lol

Yeah, we do program in french sometimes. It must be annoying for foreign readers, but if I may say, we aren't as frustrating as Japanese coders :D.

Alex


Cheers, Eric


LOL

Wow - that would be interesting to see so Scala source code written in Japanese using unicode. It might actually be pretty :-)

Copyright © 2012 École Polytechnique Fédérale de Lausanne (EPFL), Lausanne, Switzerland