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Re: scaladoc 2 convention on indenting scaladoc comments

26 replies
Jason Zaugg
Joined: 2009-05-18,
User offline. Last seen 38 weeks 5 days ago.

On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 5:16 PM, Rüdiger Keller
wrote:
> 2011/5/9 Johannes Rudolph :
>> If I understand Simon's comment from the ticket, the problem is, that
>> the Scaladoc markup language (the 'wiki syntax') relies on indentation
>> to be correct. And this can be hard to get right if it isn't clear
>> what the left border of your text actually is.
>
> I don't see the problem here. Why should it be a problem to determine
> where the left border is? Unless you begin your comment in the first
> line starting with /** there are no ambiguities. And beginning in the
> first line would be against the conventions if I'm not mistaken.
>
> Sure, there is some rather involved regex code for handling the left
> border in the current Scaladoc implementation, but that isn't affected
> by the new style as far as I remember.

I think the intended benefit is for human-, rather than machine-, parseability.

-jason

Rüdiger Keller
Joined: 2010-01-24,
User offline. Last seen 42 years 45 weeks ago.
Re: scaladoc 2 convention on indenting scaladoc comments

Ok, I see. I didn't consider this, because it never occurred to me to
use the first line of a comment for text. I guess this depends on
background and habits...

Regards,
Rüdiger

2011/5/9 Jason Zaugg :
> On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 5:16 PM, Rüdiger Keller
> wrote:
>> 2011/5/9 Johannes Rudolph :
>>> If I understand Simon's comment from the ticket, the problem is, that
>>> the Scaladoc markup language (the 'wiki syntax') relies on indentation
>>> to be correct. And this can be hard to get right if it isn't clear
>>> what the left border of your text actually is.
>>
>> I don't see the problem here. Why should it be a problem to determine
>> where the left border is? Unless you begin your comment in the first
>> line starting with /** there are no ambiguities. And beginning in the
>> first line would be against the conventions if I'm not mistaken.
>>
>> Sure, there is some rather involved regex code for handling the left
>> border in the current Scaladoc implementation, but that isn't affected
>> by the new style as far as I remember.
>
> I think the intended benefit is for human-, rather than machine-, parseability.
>
> -jason
>

soc
Joined: 2010-02-07,
User offline. Last seen 34 weeks 5 days ago.
Re: scaladoc 2 convention on indenting scaladoc comments

Hi everyone,
>>> If I understand Simon's comment from the ticket, the problem is, that
>>> the Scaladoc markup language (the 'wiki syntax') relies on indentation
>>> to be correct. And this can be hard to get right if it isn't clear
>>> what the left border of your text actually is.
> I think the intended benefit is for human-, rather than machine-, parseability.
Exactly. It is just not intuitive at all with the old style.

It doesn't matter in JavaDoc, but with the WikiSyntax it wastes a lot of
time, if one sees after half an hour that ScalaDoc actually had a
different interpretation of what the right indentation should be.

I think there were good reasons when it changed in 2.8 and back-pedaling
on it just because the IDEs don't support Scala as fast as we all would
like to see it and some people didn't read the documentation, is really
a shame.

Maybe someone should ask the original authors for comments?

Imho the current style is an improvement over the old one, especially
from a human-readability POV and as someone who actually writes
documentation a lot I really like it, although it took some time to
acclimate with it.

Personally I would prefer it to actually work on the 70% of ScalaDoc
which are not implemented yet (despite claims in the wiki), instead of
ripping apart the pieces which actually started to work recently.

Thanks and bye!

Simon

stuartroebuck
Joined: 2010-03-17,
User offline. Last seen 44 weeks 3 days ago.
Re: scaladoc 2 convention on indenting scaladoc comments
Jason,
Thanks for pointing out that settings option.  I confess that I searched a lot but didn't find it until you pointed it out here.
Stuart.
soc
Joined: 2010-02-07,
User offline. Last seen 34 weeks 5 days ago.
Re: scaladoc 2 convention on indenting scaladoc comments

Hi!

> I think that's backwards. If ScalaDoc cannot deal with the standard
> convention it needs to be fixed. If you know it does not work, can you
> please file a ticket? And I mean that independently of how the style
> discussion pans out. Clearly scaladoc's functioning should not be
> dependent on a particular style.
>

I don't think that there is a solution with the old format. Consider for
example an unordered list starting at the first line.

Either I don't have the text aligned, which just looks horrible and is
counterintuitive, because it ends up on the same level in HTML.

Or I align the text, and now my list has actually a sublist in it as a
result, while it looks totally innocent in the source code.

Maybe I'm exaggerating a bit, but I think it is either going back to the
old style and using html tags again or going with the new style and
using trac style (although I'm not really sure if it obsoletes all use
cases of html currently, especially in code examples + formatting).

I have just seen too much mis-formatted ScalaDoc in the last few weeks
while fixing the old TeX-style quotes, and I think the current style of
same-indentation-everywhere might reduce some of the most common errors.

I just wonder, if we pack-pedal that thing, will we back-pedal for
instance on the matter of TeX-style quotes, too, just because not many
people care that it is totally unsupported and breaks the formatting
everywhere in ScalaDoc2?

Thanks and bye,

Simon

odersky
Joined: 2008-07-29,
User offline. Last seen 45 weeks 6 days ago.
Re: scaladoc 2 convention on indenting scaladoc comments


On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 5:43 PM, Simon Ochsenreither <simon [at] ochsenreither [dot] de> wrote:
Hi everyone,
If I understand Simon's comment from the ticket, the problem is, that
the Scaladoc markup language (the 'wiki syntax') relies on indentation
to be correct. And this can be hard to get right if it isn't clear
what the left border of your text actually is.
I think the intended benefit is for human-, rather than machine-, parseability.
Exactly. It is just not intuitive at all with the old style.

It doesn't matter in JavaDoc, but with the WikiSyntax it wastes a lot of time, if one sees after half an hour that ScalaDoc actually had a different interpretation of what the right indentation should be.

I think that's backwards. If ScalaDoc cannot deal with the standard convention it needs to be fixed. If you know it does not work, can you please file a ticket? And I mean that independently of how the style discussion pans out. Clearly scaladoc's functioning should not be dependent on a particular style.

Cheers

 -- Martin

odersky
Joined: 2008-07-29,
User offline. Last seen 45 weeks 6 days ago.
Re: scaladoc 2 convention on indenting scaladoc comments


On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 5:59 PM, Simon Ochsenreither <simon [at] ochsenreither [dot] de> wrote:
Hi!

I think that's backwards. If ScalaDoc cannot deal with the standard convention it needs to be fixed. If you know it does not work, can you please file a ticket? And I mean that independently of how the style discussion pans out. Clearly scaladoc's functioning should not be dependent on a particular style.


I don't think that there is a solution with the old format. Consider for example an unordered list starting at the first line.

Either I don't have the text aligned, which just looks horrible and is counterintuitive, because it ends up on the same level in HTML.

Or I align the text, and now my list has actually a sublist in it as a result, while it looks totally innocent in the source code.


Does anyone actually do that? Scaladoc with an unordered list at the first line? What kind of meaningful doc comment would start with an unordered list?

I'd say, if people do that, they'd deserve any random behavior of the tool.

 -- Martin
Jason Zaugg
Joined: 2009-05-18,
User offline. Last seen 38 weeks 5 days ago.
Re: scaladoc 2 convention on indenting scaladoc comments

On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 5:59 PM, Simon Ochsenreither
wrote:
> Hi!
>
>> I think that's backwards. If ScalaDoc cannot deal with the standard
>> convention it needs to be fixed. If you know it does not work, can you
>> please file a ticket? And I mean that independently of how the style
>> discussion pans out. Clearly scaladoc's functioning should not be dependent
>> on a particular style.
>>
>
> I don't think that there is a solution with the old format. Consider for
> example an unordered list starting at the first line.

How often does that come up? Did you find this in the comments for
scalac or the standard library?

-jason

soc
Joined: 2010-02-07,
User offline. Last seen 34 weeks 5 days ago.
Re: scaladoc 2 convention on indenting scaladoc comments

Hi,

> Does anyone actually do that? Scaladoc with an unordered list at the
> first line? What kind of meaningful doc comment would start with an
> unordered list?
It was just one example where ScalaDoc behaves inconsistent. The whole
tool is full of these quirks and it is quite hard to remember all of
them while writing documentation.

It would be nice to reduce the complexity of writing documentation and I
think the current comment style does that, while also reducing the
visual clutter and making the appearance in the source code similar with
the appearance in HTML.

> I'd say, if people do that, they'd deserve any random behavior of the
> tool.
Yes, sure. But abusing tools often shows the weaknesses they have more
clearly. :-)

There is just so much work left on ScalaDoc, implementation-wise _and_
specification-wise, and hope this discussion about comment style won't
waste time with things which should be considered fixed.

Maybe there should be more attention spent on IDE plugins instead so
that the recommended style is implemented with less delay. (So that
people can see it and complain in a timely manner and not 2 releases
later :-D)

Thanks and bye,

Simon

stuartroebuck
Joined: 2010-03-17,
User offline. Last seen 44 weeks 3 days ago.
Re: scaladoc 2 convention on indenting scaladoc comments
It does feel like a solution looking for a problem and causing one!
The vast majority of code is of the form:
/** * COMMENTS GO HERE * AND HERE * ETC */
or occasionally:
/** A SHORT COMMENT */
That is the standard convention and a perfect clear and unambiguous one to maintain compatibility with as well as, by all means, with the new:
/** COMMENTS GO HERE  * AND HERE  * ETC */
format as well.
Edge cases that don't conform to the above just need to be handled consistently with some documented algorithm so that developers who like to be different can understand why their comments are broken.  Personally I think the left margin should simply be defined as "* " which is at least simple and consistent with the Scala stripMargin approach to handling left margins.
Stuart.
P.S. I think ScalaDoc 2 and the new HTML rendering is great.  That's why this matters! :)
soc
Joined: 2010-02-07,
User offline. Last seen 34 weeks 5 days ago.
Re: scaladoc 2 convention on indenting scaladoc comments

Hi!
> How often does that come up? Did you find this in the comments for
> scalac or the standard library?
I found most of the various quirks while working on that
https://github.com/soc/scala/commit/2fb4fce55ca81722c8f1cfcc8f81cc9ce741...
commit, but I frankly don't remember the specific file anymore.

It is just that I'm grateful for any actual reduction of complexity
after I tried to make some fixes to the library. I believe there is
something wrong when even the gods of higher-kinded types and implicits
sometimes don't understand ScalaDoc correctly. :-)

Thanks and bye,

Simon

soc
Joined: 2010-02-07,
User offline. Last seen 34 weeks 5 days ago.
Re: scaladoc 2 convention on indenting scaladoc comments
Hi,

let's not start a flame war. :-)

It does feel like a solution looking for a problem and causing one!
Maybe the change back in Scala 2.8 was debatable, but back-pedaling now is just worse, especially if the change itself was an improvement.

I think that such changes could be better announced publicly and implemented with less delay in the tooling.

But really, I think reversing a change _after_ tooling finally started to support it, is just a bad move.

Edge cases that don't conform to the above just need to be handled consistently with some documented algorithm so that developers who like to be different can understand why their comments are broken.  Personally I think the left margin should simply be defined as "* " which is at least simple and consistent with the Scala stripMargin approach to handling left margins.
I agree. The current approach does exactly that and actually also looks like that in the source code, because everything lines up consistently.

P.S. I think ScalaDoc 2 and the new HTML rendering is great.  That's why this matters! :)
I just feel with the same argument we could also throw away the new ScalaDoc, because not many people seem to care that `foo' isn't accepted anymore as a source code quote and just keep using it instead of `foo`.

Thanks and bye,


Simon

PS: Btw, I don't think it is strictly necessary to "fix all the standard library". Scala isn't the only language out there where the implementation doesn't follow the recommended practice to 100%. Apart from that, I would have no problem sitting down and fixing the standard library.
odersky
Joined: 2008-07-29,
User offline. Last seen 45 weeks 6 days ago.
Re: scaladoc 2 convention on indenting scaladoc comments
Let's just take a step back. So far, I hear one opinion from Simon and another opinion from everyone else.

Given that the recommendation in the Scaladoc document was made without consultation with the Scala community by I do not know who, and none of the original contributors speak up in favor here, let's bring this to a close:

First, Scaladoc needs to be fixed so that it conforms to any start of line convention.

Second, the Scaladoc recommendations should be brought in line with what everyone else is using. That style should be kept for the documentation of the standard library and compiler.

 -- Martin
Ruediger Keller 2
Joined: 2010-04-30,
User offline. Last seen 42 years 45 weeks ago.
Re: scaladoc 2 convention on indenting scaladoc comments
Currently Scaladoc does the following (just checked the code):

When removing the left gutter of a comment it first removes the leading /* and then on every line all starting whitespace, the first * and one additional whitespace is removed. This works for plain old Javadoc style comments and also for newly proposed style. It's only problematic when using the old school Javadoc style but writing the comment starting from the first line:

/** This is problematic because for Scaladoc this first
 *  line is indented with zero whitespaces and all the
 *  following lines are indented with one whitespace.
 */

turns into ==>

This is problematic because for Scaladoc this first
 line is indented with zero whitespaces and all the
 following lines are indented with one whitespace.

But this is also only really a problem when using wiki syntax on the first line that's relying on indentation. Like starting a list on the first line of the comment. Probably not an often used feature.

So does Scaladoc need fixing and if yes, what needs to be changed?

Regards,
Rüdiger


2011/5/9 martin odersky <martin [dot] odersky [at] epfl [dot] ch>:
> Let's just take a step back. So far, I hear one opinion from Simon and
> another opinion from everyone else.
>
> Given that the recommendation in the Scaladoc document was made without
> consultation with the Scala community by I do not know who, and none of the
> original contributors speak up in favor here, let's bring this to a close:
>
> First, Scaladoc needs to be fixed so that it conforms to any start of line
> convention.
>
> Second, the Scaladoc recommendations should be brought in line with what
> everyone else is using. That style should be kept for the documentation of
> the standard library and compiler.
>
>  -- Martin
>

soc
Joined: 2010-02-07,
User offline. Last seen 34 weeks 5 days ago.
Re: scaladoc 2 convention on indenting scaladoc comments

Hi,

> Let's just take a step back. So far, I hear one opinion from Simon and
> another opinion from everyone else.
>
> Given that the recommendation in the Scaladoc document was made
> without consultation with the Scala community by I do not know who,
> and none of the original contributors speak up in favor here, let's
> bring this to a close:
Maybe they don't checked their emails yet. It is just 3 hours since the
discussion started.

> First, Scaladoc needs to be fixed so that it conforms to any start of
> line convention.
>
> Second, the Scaladoc recommendations should be brought in line with
> what everyone else is using. That style should be kept for the
> documentation of the standard library and compiler.
Sometimes an improvement seems to be not worth the amount of discussion
it generates. :-(

Judging from the amount of mails this has already generated in less than
3 hours, I'm in favor of this fast decision, even if it reverts the
improvements made in 2.8 instead of loosing time with endless discussions.

Thanks and bye,

Simon

Randall R Schulz
Joined: 2008-12-16,
User offline. Last seen 1 year 29 weeks ago.
Re: scaladoc 2 convention on indenting scaladoc comments

On Monday May 9 2011, Stuart Roebuck wrote:
> It does feel like a solution looking for a problem and causing one!
>
> The vast majority of code is of the form:
>
> /**
> * COMMENTS GO HERE
> * AND HERE
> * ETC
> */
>
> ...

Do we have to use the silly stars down the left hand side? What purpose
do they serve?

> Stuart.

Randall Schulz

Elazar Leibovich
Joined: 2009-10-07,
User offline. Last seen 42 years 45 weeks ago.
Re: scaladoc 2 convention on indenting scaladoc comments
On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 6:31 AM, Randall R Schulz <rschulz [at] sonic [dot] net> wrote:
On Monday May 9 2011, Stuart Roebuck wrote:
> It does feel like a solution looking for a problem and causing one!
>
> The vast majority of code is of the form:
>
> /**
>  * COMMENTS GO HERE
>  * AND HERE
>  * ETC
>  */
>
> ...

Do we have to use the silly stars down the left hand side? What purpose
do they serve?

You can see instantly that a long comment is a comment. Think for example for a comment which contains code samples. 


> Stuart.


Randall Schulz

Randall R Schulz
Joined: 2008-12-16,
User offline. Last seen 1 year 29 weeks ago.
Re: scaladoc 2 convention on indenting scaladoc comments

On Monday May 9 2011, Elazar Leibovich wrote:
> On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 6:31 AM, Randall R Schulz
wrote:
> > On Monday May 9 2011, Stuart Roebuck wrote:
> > > It does feel like a solution looking for a problem and causing
> > > one!
> > >
> > > The vast majority of code is of the form:
> > >
> > > /**
> > > * COMMENTS GO HERE
> > > * AND HERE
> > > * ETC
> > > */
> > >
> > > ...
> >
> > Do we have to use the silly stars down the left hand side? What
> > purpose do they serve?
>
> You can see instantly that a long comment is a comment. Think for
> example for a comment which contains code samples.

How can you fail to see that even in the absence of the asterisks?

Randall Schulz

extempore
Joined: 2008-12-17,
User offline. Last seen 35 weeks 3 days ago.
Re: scaladoc 2 convention on indenting scaladoc comments

On 5/9/11 9:52 PM, Elazar Leibovich wrote:
> You can see instantly that a long comment is a comment. Think for
> example for a comment which contains code samples.

That argument would have held a little more water twenty years ago.
Syntax highlighting is ubiquitous: if you don't have or choose not to
use syntax highlighting, you are either hard-core old school or pretty
out of touch with the tools. We know it can compile scala programs so
it's not a vic-20 or anything. But whatever the underlying reasoning,
it's only applicable to a small minority.

Elazar Leibovich
Joined: 2009-10-07,
User offline. Last seen 42 years 45 weeks ago.
Re: scaladoc 2 convention on indenting scaladoc comments
On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 8:28 AM, Paul Phillips <paulp [at] improving [dot] org> wrote:
On 5/9/11 9:52 PM, Elazar Leibovich wrote:
> You can see instantly that a long comment is a comment. Think for
> example for a comment which contains code samples.

That argument would have held a little more water twenty years ago.
Syntax highlighting is ubiquitous: if you don't have or choose not to
use syntax highlighting, you are either hard-core old school or pretty
out of touch with the tools.  We know it can compile scala programs so
it's not a vic-20 or anything.  But whatever the underlying reasoning,
it's only applicable to a small minority.

Just clarifying, I generally agree with Paul's view here. I was just presenting argument I heard once in C++ lessons, featuring code with hard-to-find bugs due to multiline comments.
Stefan Wagner
Joined: 2011-04-08,
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Re: scaladoc 2 convention on indenting scaladoc comments

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Am 10.05.2011 05:31, schrieb Randall R Schulz:

>> /**
>> * COMMENTS GO HERE
>> * AND HERE
>> * ETC
>> */
>>
>> ...
>
> Do we have to use the silly stars down the left hand side? What purpose
> do they serve?

I would prefere code-blocks of the form:

/** COMMENTS GO HERE
AND HERE
AND HERE
ETC */
def dummy (foo: Foo)

without unused stars, or better:

/** COMMENTS GO HERE
AND HERE
AND HERE
ETC */
def dummy (foo: Foo)

For html, a line.trim () should remove all leading and trailing blanks.

soc
Joined: 2010-02-07,
User offline. Last seen 34 weeks 5 days ago.
Re: scaladoc 2 convention on indenting scaladoc comments

+1

> without unused stars, or better:
>
> /** COMMENTS GO HERE
> AND HERE
> AND HERE
> ETC */
> def dummy (foo: Foo)

Philippe Lhoste
Joined: 2010-09-02,
User offline. Last seen 42 years 45 weeks ago.
Re: scaladoc 2 convention on indenting scaladoc comments

On 11/05/2011 06:04, Stefan Wagner wrote:
> Am 10.05.2011 05:31, schrieb Randall R Schulz:
>>> /**
>>> * COMMENTS GO HERE
>>> * AND HERE
>>> * ETC
>>> */
>>
>> Do we have to use the silly stars down the left hand side? What purpose
>> do they serve?
>
> I would prefere code-blocks of the form:
>
> /** COMMENTS GO HERE
> AND HERE
> AND HERE
> ETC */
> def dummy (foo: Foo)
>
> without unused stars, or better:
>
> /** COMMENTS GO HERE
> AND HERE
> AND HERE
> ETC */
> def dummy (foo: Foo)

Yes, there are lot of tastes, like for whitespace handling for indentation, choice of
brace positions, and so on.
Everybody has a different concept of readability, and then there is tradition, JavaDoc
being firmly planted in many developer's minds, and even Qt, thus Doxygen, reused the
convention for C++ (and more) code.

So, the best is to make a flexible tool able to handle all these styles. If not by
auto-discovering, at least by some settings.

As a reminder, speaking of Doxygen, we already debated the advantages of commenting
method's parameters inline, instead of repeating parameter names in the doc, which is
prone to desynchronization (method changes, comments are forgotten):

def someMethod(
foo: Int, ///< A number
bar: String, ///< The message
zot: Boolean ///< An option
)

Here, the doc tool automatically extract information from the code, instead of having the
developer to manually repeat them (even if IDEs can help, not everybody use them).

dcsobral
Joined: 2009-04-23,
User offline. Last seen 38 weeks 5 days ago.
Re: scaladoc 2 convention on indenting scaladoc comments

On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 01:04, Stefan Wagner wrote:

> /** COMMENTS GO HERE
>    AND HERE
>    AND HERE
>    ETC */
> def dummy (foo: Foo)
>
> For html, a line.trim () should remove all leading and trailing blanks.

That doesn't work with wiki markup.

Joshua.Suereth
Joined: 2008-09-02,
User offline. Last seen 32 weeks 5 days ago.
Re: scaladoc 2 convention on indenting scaladoc comments

I think we need an intercal-y feature where you must provide enough ascii artsy astectics in code, perhaps a self portrait, for scaladoc to generate any documentation.  

On May 10, 2011 1:28 AM, "Paul Phillips" <paulp [at] improving [dot] org> wrote:
> On 5/9/11 9:52 PM, Elazar Leibovich wrote:
>> You can see instantly that a long comment is a comment. Think for
>> example for a comment which contains code samples.
>
> That argument would have held a little more water twenty years ago.
> Syntax highlighting is ubiquitous: if you don't have or choose not to
> use syntax highlighting, you are either hard-core old school or pretty
> out of touch with the tools. We know it can compile scala programs so
> it's not a vic-20 or anything. But whatever the underlying reasoning,
> it's only applicable to a small minority.
Kevin Wright 2
Joined: 2010-05-30,
User offline. Last seen 26 weeks 4 days ago.
Re: scaladoc 2 convention on indenting scaladoc comments


On 14 May 2011 15:08, Josh Suereth <joshua [dot] suereth [at] gmail [dot] com> wrote:

I think we need an intercal-y feature where you must provide enough ascii artsy astectics in code, perhaps a self portrait, for scaladoc to generate any documentation.  


If going down that route, then at least one literary annotation from GAG should be made compulsory on each and every method name:http://code.google.com/p/gag/
 
On May 10, 2011 1:28 AM, "Paul Phillips" <paulp [at] improving [dot] org> wrote:
> On 5/9/11 9:52 PM, Elazar Leibovich wrote:
>> You can see instantly that a long comment is a comment. Think for
>> example for a comment which contains code samples.
>
> That argument would have held a little more water twenty years ago.
> Syntax highlighting is ubiquitous: if you don't have or choose not to
> use syntax highlighting, you are either hard-core old school or pretty
> out of touch with the tools. We know it can compile scala programs so
> it's not a vic-20 or anything. But whatever the underlying reasoning,
> it's only applicable to a small minority.



--
Kevin Wright

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pkolaczk
Joined: 2010-01-14,
User offline. Last seen 2 years 38 weeks ago.
Re: scaladoc 2 convention on indenting scaladoc comments

W dniu 2011-05-09 19:10, martin odersky pisze:
> Let's just take a step back. So far, I hear one opinion from Simon and
> another opinion from everyone else.

I personally like the ScalaDoc2 comment convention very much.
I've already been writing comments like that for quite long and I'm very
happy that IntelliJ now supports it.

Regards,
Piotr

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