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lift production experience was Re: Are there any Scala friend small embeddable HTTP Severs?

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Meredith Gregory
Joined: 2008-12-17,
User offline. Last seen 42 years 45 weeks ago.
Lifted and Scalads and Lasses alike,

The he-said, she-said discussion is sociologically interesting, but i would really like to get some hard core data from others' experience with lift in production. i'm in the process of putting together real-world technical proposals to people who really care about this stuff and actual data -- other than what we've been gathering on our own -- would be greatly appreciated. In return, after we have done our homework, we will be happy to share our results. (BTW, is there a place on liftweb for posting that sort of data?)

Best wishes,


On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 10:01 AM, David Pollak <feeder [dot] of [dot] the [dot] bears [at] gmail [dot] com> wrote:
Ricky et. al.,

On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 5:12 AM, Ricky Clarkson <ricky [dot] clarkson [at] gmail [dot] com> wrote:
I think Tony finds it odd that dpp says things like "Box is Option" which is algebraically false but as an analogy it is reasonable. 

Tony objected to the reputed "Box is Option" statement.  There was a discussion about this on the Lift list.  Tony gave no ground in any of the discussion (for example, when Jorge discussed the OO perspective) and was hostile and in my opinion, abusive.

Near the end of the discussion, I stated that I did not recall stating that "Box is Option" but that "Box is like Option, except..."  See So, the factually basis for Tony's position was gone.  Did he apologize?  Did he behave at all reasonably?  No, he made a post (which I deleted because Tony's messages were moderated) which claimed that I had claimed identity between Box and Option but he was "too lazy" to find the post.  [Turns out that during the thread, I made the statement, but I've searched previous posts on the Lift list and could not find myself or anybody else claiming that Box (or Can) was an Option.]
Tony tried to discuss this [in his usual exacting style] but found himself banned from the Lift list, and tried talking to dpp about it,

Actually, it was somewhat different than this.  I had left a number of Tony's messages in the moderation queue.  I contacted him privately many posts before I banned him and asked him to tone it down.  Here's the text of my first private note:

I'm not going to post your last two responses because you've crossed the line from being exacting to being abusive.  I have a great deal of respect for you as a coder and as a thinker.  But, your brand of argumentation does not have a place on the Lift list.
Rather than showing any form of understanding what I was asking of him, Tony continued to behave in a manner that is inappropriate on the Lift list.  I banned him from the Lift list.

Tony continued to contact me privately.  He did not contact me trying to understand why he was banned or to try to get unbanned.  He continued to have the pointless discussion about Boxes and Options.

only to get personal threats in return.  "I'll tell your employer".

Yes, after the 3rd request from me to Tony to not contact me privately because the discussion was done, I told him that if he contacted me again, I would contact his employer.  At least Tony stopped sending me email.

So, that's the history from my perspective.  Tony's the only substantive contributor to the Lift list who's ever been banned.  I regret that the Lift community will not be able to benefit from Tony's remarkable approach to development.  On the other hand, the Lift community is a warm and welcoming place and Tony's behavior chilled the place a whole lot.

So... on to the substance of what I can read from Tony's comments.  He's right.  Lift is seriously lacking.  While I still think it's the best web framework, it is seriously lacking.

I am projecting the kind of issues that Greg Meredith is having with Lift.  From reading the code that Tony and Greg have written, they have a similar coding style and I believe a similarly rigorous approach to design and development.  Lift is a blend of FP and OO, stateless and stateful, transformative and imperative.  And, as Lift gets closer to 1.0, I'm not sure that we got the balance right.

Perhaps some sort of pi-calculus based way of describing web app logic would allow for better reasoning.  I've noodled with doing some sort of stuff with pi-calculus in Lift.  I stopped the exploration because I was unable to find reasonable language constructs to express what I wanted economically and in a way that a Rails or Struts or Wicket developer could pick up reasonably easily.  But, I digress.

So, if there are performance or stability problems with Working Mouse's Lift-based app, Oliver is welcome and encouraged to post those to the Lift list.  Fixing defects in production or beta code is a very high priority and I will get to them immediately.  If there are flaws in Lift's design, I'm all for hearing about them.




For reference, Box is a tri-state Option, so technically it's like saying the range 0..2 is the same as the range 0..1, but practically 2 of Box's states correspond to None.

What Tony is objecting to is that critical thought appears to be treated with disdain.  He often comes across as aggressive when objecting to that, which is a shame.

2009/1/21 Christos KK Loverdos <loverdos [at] gmail [dot] com>
I agree with you 100%. It is not a matter of me (or anyone else) being for or against Lift, but in this case no-one can blame the work of the Lift people by just making a public statement of this kind. ..
... .. ... ... ....
Tony, please, please, please elaborate. Maybe Lift can become better if you contributed your experience.
On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 12:38 AM, Seth Tisue <seth [at] tisue [dot] net> wrote:
>>>>> "Tony" == Tony Morris <tmorris [at] tmorris [dot] net> writes:

 Tony> For what it might be worth to anyone out there, we made the
 Tony> unfortunate decision of using Lift in a production application
 Tony> against my warnings and we are now paying the price heavily in
 Tony> many ways (too many to enumerate). "I told you so" is a poor
 Tony> consolation prize, but I suppose lessons are there to be learned.

If you're going to publicly be that harsh on Lift, I think you really
ought to explain what you thought the most important problems were.
Otherwise you're just spreading FUD.

Seth Tisue /
lead developer, NetLogo:

-\ <,       Christos KK Loverdos
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