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Re: Yammer moving away from Scala

41 replies
gkossakowski
Joined: 2010-03-11,
User offline. Last seen 33 weeks 5 days ago.

On 30 November 2011 22:55, Russ Paielli wrote:
>
> I assume that compiling with -optimize takes longer, and that is why it is
> not the default. If it takes no longer to compile (and it works reliably),
> then yes it might as well be the default.

It does take significantly longer to compile large code bases with
-optimize enabled.

Viktor Klang
Joined: 2008-12-17,
User offline. Last seen 1 year 27 weeks ago.
Re: Yammer moving away from Scala


2011/11/30 Erik Osheim <erik [at] plastic-idolatry [dot] com>
On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 10:37:02PM +0100, √iktor Ҡlang wrote:
> > You are not a compiler, you are a human being who can infer from the
> > context. So you know EXACTLY what I mean. Your question serves no useful
> > purpose but adds the flames.
> >
>
> What are you talking about, I asked a perfectly sensible question.
> Are you talking about optimizing foreach or are you talking about something
> more general when it comes to desugaring for comprehensions, you definitely
> don't need to get all ballistic for no reason.

If you needed clarification because you were confused then Aleksey
wrongly took offense at your reply. If you were taking the opportunity
to snipe at him for using slightly inexact terminology then his
reaction would make sense.

No, I'm still unsure if we're talking about optimizing foreach or there are some special desugaring-optimizations of for comprehensions that are being discussed.
 

Martin (and most of us I think) understood what he meant, and Martin
referred to a "standard for loop" in his reply. I don't think anyone
would reply to Martin Odersky pointing out the fact that Scala doesn't
have for loops and asking for clarification.

I've been wasting too much time in discussions where people _thought_ they had the same definition of a word and then after a lot of gripe suddenly they found out that they were talking about different things, so I tend to want clarification in case I'm unsure. I see that as responsible, adult, behavior.
 

Online, it's easy to perceive hostility online when none exists. It's
also easy to be casually rude to people. Let's all try to lighten up a
bit.

Exactly, there was no grounds for which to become upset.
 

Tony Morris 2
Joined: 2009-03-20,
User offline. Last seen 42 years 45 weeks ago.
Re: Yammer moving away from Scala

On 01/12/11 20:38, Paul Butcher wrote:
> people get "jumpy" and start taking offence unnecessarily. It becomes a self-perpetuating negative cycle. We all need to participate in breaking that cycle.

Of all the commentary I have seen lately, this sentence alone has the
most value.

paulbutcher
Joined: 2010-03-08,
User offline. Last seen 10 weeks 5 days ago.
Re: Yammer moving away from Scala

On 1 Dec 2011, at 10:45, Tony Morris wrote:
> Of all the commentary I have seen lately, this sentence alone has the
> most value.

Thank you Tony.

For the avoidance of doubt - part of what needs to happen is for those of us who are prone to taking offence unnecessarily to give the benefit of the doubt to the person who we think might be being insulting. But part of what we need to do is be careful not to say things that could be interpreted as insulting.

I believe, from your recent comment in another thread, that you feel that avoiding language which might be interpreted in this way is "useless and superficial pandering". I understand why you feel that way, but that lack of pandering on the part of some members of this list is a large part of what's caused the current problem.

--
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Tony Morris 2
Joined: 2009-03-20,
User offline. Last seen 42 years 45 weeks ago.
Re: Yammer moving away from Scala

On 01/12/11 20:58, Paul Butcher wrote:
> On 1 Dec 2011, at 10:45, Tony Morris wrote:
>> Of all the commentary I have seen lately, this sentence alone has the
>> most value.
>
> Thank you Tony.
>
> For the avoidance of doubt - part of what needs to happen is for those of us who are prone to taking offence unnecessarily to give the benefit of the doubt to the person who we think might be being insulting. But part of what we need to do is be careful not to say things that could be interpreted as insulting.
>
> I believe, from your recent comment in another thread, that you feel that avoiding language which might be interpreted in this way is "useless and superficial pandering". I understand why you feel that way, but that lack of pandering on the part of some members of this list is a large part of what's caused the current problem.
>
I disagree that the lack of pandering causes any problem. Any problem
existed before the opportunity to unnecessarily pander even existed.
More to the (practical) point, I also reject any possible suggestion
that these problems are difficult to overcome -- it's easy.

sergei
Joined: 2011-03-29,
User offline. Last seen 1 year 20 weeks ago.
Re: Yammer moving away from Scala

*Anything* can be interpreted as insulting by a person with low self-
esteem. Quite often, such people tend to project self-loathing
externally, exhibiting shocking ability to find and exaggerate flaws
in even the most beautiful things.

Surely Scala has plenty of areas for improvement, which shall be duly
noted and scheduled for prioritization and execution. Yet I would
advise the Scala team to avoid getting distracted from pursuit of a
bigger strategic goal by strongly expressed opinions regarding
features of tactical importance.

The discussions like this one here remind me of face-to-face
encounters involving Comp.Sc.Ph.D. with couple decades of experience
designing highly complex software systems vs. bright but not yet
educated and not yet experienced junior programmers working on
relatively simple "shuffle data back and forth" applications.

Scala specifically presents a "trap" to certain junior programmers, as
it may appear simple on the surface, while in fact one needs quite a
bit of genetically-determined mental capacity, education, and
experience to use Scala effectively.

On the other hand, certain junior programmers present a "trap" to
Scala community, as they may require spending a lot of attention and
hand-holding by more senior members, only to be found abandoning Scala
in the end.

I think this inherent tension explains quite of bit of the dynamics we
observe on this discussion board.

On Dec 1, 2:58 am, Paul Butcher

wrote:

> For the avoidance of doubt - part of what needs to happen is for those of us who are prone to taking offence unnecessarily to give the benefit of the doubt to the person who we think might be being insulting. But part of what we need to do is be careful not to say things that could be interpreted as insulting.
>

d_m
Joined: 2010-11-11,
User offline. Last seen 35 weeks 2 days ago.
Re: Re: Yammer moving away from Scala

I and many other people I know in the Scala community (who I would not
describe as "bright but not yet educated and not yet experienced junion
programmers" nor as people with "low self-esteem") think this is a real
problem, not just an anomaly.

I'm not sure what it is going to take to change the discussion from "is
there a problem?" to "how do we make the community more welcoming
and/or moderate the level of hostility" but we clearly need something.
Maybe some kind of internal poll or survey? I don't know.

Even if there is a mismatch between inexperienced newcomers and very
experienced and smart veterans, we must do better to keep discussions
friendly and relaxed (even when we disagree). In this I agree with Rex
Kerr's earlier post.

By the way Sergei, while I understand that you're trying to help, the
way you framed your email paints people who are worried about (or
affected by) the tone of our community in insulting terms.

Specifically, it describes people taking offense as either
"[projecting] self-loathing externally" or that they are "not yet
educated or experienced" or that they may lack "a bit of
genetically-determined mental capacity, education, and experience".

This is the kind of thing I'd like to see less of.

Joshua.Suereth
Joined: 2008-09-02,
User offline. Last seen 32 weeks 5 days ago.
Re: Re: Yammer moving away from Scala


On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 1:52 PM, Erik Osheim <erik [at] plastic-idolatry [dot] com> wrote:
I and many other people I know in the Scala community (who I would not
describe as "bright but not yet educated and not yet experienced junion
programmers" nor as people with "low self-esteem") think this is a real
problem, not just an anomaly.

I'm not sure what it is going to take to change the discussion from "is
there a problem?" to "how do we make the community more welcoming
and/or moderate the level of hostility" but we clearly need something.
Maybe some kind of internal poll or survey? I don't know.

Even if there is a mismatch between inexperienced newcomers and very
experienced and smart veterans, we must do better to keep discussions
friendly and relaxed (even when we disagree). In this I agree with Rex
Kerr's earlier post.

By the way Sergei, while I understand that you're trying to help, the
way you framed your email paints people who are worried about (or
affected by) the tone of our community in insulting terms.

Specifically, it describes people taking offense as either
"[projecting] self-loathing externally" or that they are "not yet
educated or experienced" or that they may lack "a bit of
genetically-determined mental capacity, education, and experience".

This is the kind of thing I'd like to see less of.

Chris Marshall
Joined: 2009-06-17,
User offline. Last seen 44 weeks 3 days ago.
RE: Re: Yammer moving away from Scala
Unfortunately, my genetically-determined mental capacity became exhausted when I was trying to understand how the phrase "genetically-determined mental capacity" was to be taken as the uncontroversial and non-sinister statement you surely intended it to be
:-(

> Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 09:46:49 -0800
> Subject: [scala-debate] Re: Yammer moving away from Scala
> From: hello [dot] sergei [at] gmail [dot] com
>
> one needs quite a bit of genetically-determined mental capacity, education, and
> experience to use Scala effectively.

sergei
Joined: 2011-03-29,
User offline. Last seen 1 year 20 weeks ago.
Re: Yammer moving away from Scala

I agree it is a real problem. Yet I disagree that the community shall
become exceedinlgy self-moderating and less intellectually challenging
(considered by some as "hostile").

I see it as a problem when a person with a liberal arts degree and
barely five years of coding experience expresses strong and mostly
wrong opinions regarding Scala vs. Java, and the experienced members
of the community start falling over themselves to placate him.

I deliberately framed my previous post to be rather direct and
inviting such strongly opinionated people to look in the mirror and
ask themselves why do they choose to post such unbalanced personal
views as an official decision of a well-known company.

You see, I've been bitten by that bug before - junior programmers
unwilling or incapable of learning how to properly use a technology,
and resorting instead to its critique based on rather irrelevant micro-
benchmarks.

The corollary to the "insecure people tend to blame others
excessively" is "very secure people tend to avoid blaming others
altogether". I'm trying to be balanced here and say what Martin and
other members of the community of comparable stature would perhaps
never say - "Don't blame the tool, learn how to use it properly
instead".

On Dec 1, 10:52 am, Erik Osheim wrote:
> I and many other people I know in the Scala community (who I would not
> describe as "bright but not yet educated and not yet experienced junion
> programmers" nor as people with "low self-esteem") think this is a real
> problem, not just an anomaly.
>
> I'm not sure what it is going to take to change the discussion from "is
> there a problem?" to "how do we make the community more welcoming
> and/or moderate the level of hostility" but we clearly need something.
> Maybe some kind of internal poll or survey? I don't know.
>
> Even if there is a mismatch between inexperienced newcomers and very
> experienced and smart veterans, we must do better to keep discussions
> friendly and relaxed (even when we disagree). In this I agree with Rex
> Kerr's earlier post.
>
> By the way Sergei, while I understand that you're trying to help, the
> way you framed your email paints people who are worried about (or
> affected by) the tone of our community in insulting terms.
>
> Specifically, it describes people taking offense as either
> "[projecting] self-loathing externally" or that they are "not yet
> educated or experienced" or that they may lack "a bit of
> genetically-determined mental capacity, education, and experience".
>
> This is the kind of thing I'd like to see less of.
>

Naftoli Gugenheim
Joined: 2008-12-17,
User offline. Last seen 42 years 45 weeks ago.
Re: Re: Yammer moving away from Scala
We have two choices. Either we can be "right," or we can accept that there are other opinions that just may be as valid as our own, and accomodate them.Some people seem concerned about that fact that they have a right to behave certain ways. Others seem concerned about the fact that certain behaviors hurt Scala's perception and adoption. Let's stop worrying about our rights and start thinking about how we can improve.

On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 9:07 PM, Sergei <hello [dot] sergei [at] gmail [dot] com> wrote:
I agree it is a real problem. Yet I disagree that the community shall
become exceedinlgy self-moderating and less intellectually challenging
(considered by some as "hostile").

I see it as a problem when a person with a liberal arts degree and
barely five years of coding experience expresses strong and mostly
wrong opinions regarding Scala vs. Java, and the experienced members
of the community start falling over themselves to placate him.

I deliberately framed my previous post to be rather direct and
inviting such strongly opinionated people to look in the mirror and
ask themselves why do they choose to post such unbalanced personal
views as an official decision of a well-known company.

You see, I've been bitten by that bug before - junior programmers
unwilling or incapable of learning how to properly use a technology,
and resorting instead to its critique based on rather irrelevant micro-
benchmarks.

The corollary to the "insecure people tend to blame others
excessively" is "very secure people tend to avoid blaming others
altogether". I'm trying to be balanced here and say what Martin and
other members of the community of comparable stature would perhaps
never say - "Don't blame the tool, learn how to use it properly
instead".


On Dec 1, 10:52 am, Erik Osheim <e [dot] [dot] [dot] [at] plastic-idolatry [dot] com> wrote:
> I and many other people I know in the Scala community (who I would not
> describe as "bright but not yet educated and not yet experienced junion
> programmers" nor as people with "low self-esteem") think this is a real
> problem, not just an anomaly.
>
> I'm not sure what it is going to take to change the discussion from "is
> there a problem?" to "how do we make the community more welcoming
> and/or moderate the level of hostility" but we clearly need something.
> Maybe some kind of internal poll or survey? I don't know.
>
> Even if there is a mismatch between inexperienced newcomers and very
> experienced and smart veterans, we must do better to keep discussions
> friendly and relaxed (even when we disagree). In this I agree with Rex
> Kerr's earlier post.
>
> By the way Sergei, while I understand that you're trying to help, the
> way you framed your email paints people who are worried about (or
> affected by) the tone of our community in insulting terms.
>
> Specifically, it describes people taking offense as either
> "[projecting] self-loathing externally" or that they are "not yet
> educated or experienced" or that they may lack "a bit of
> genetically-determined mental capacity, education, and experience".
>
> This is the kind of thing I'd like to see less of.
>
> -- Erik

moors
Joined: 2010-10-06,
User offline. Last seen 36 weeks 4 days ago.
Re: Yammer moving away from Scala

I deliberately framed my previous post to be rather direct and
inviting such strongly opinionated people to look in the mirror and
ask themselves why do they choose to post such unbalanced personal
views as an official decision of a well-known company.

I think the underlying point here is that, no matter how noble a goal,trying to make people self-reflect is off-topic even for scala-debate.
We're supposed to debate Scala. Not each other.
Furthermore, the sole purpose of the debate should be to improve (our understanding of) Scala and its eco-system.

adriaan

ps: the implication "I'm being critized strongly => let's calmy reflect on what I'm missing/doing wrong/..." holds for very few people
ARKBAN
Joined: 2011-08-11,
User offline. Last seen 42 years 45 weeks ago.
Re: Re: Yammer moving away from Scala

> You see, I've been bitten by that bug before - junior programmers
> unwilling or incapable of learning how to properly use a technology,
> and resorting instead to its critique based on rather irrelevant micro-
> benchmarks.

Everyone has been bitten by that. In every industry. From the beginning
of human's history. That's what youth is, it questions the old and
established, sometimes correctly and sometimes incorrectly. I think you
will be happier if you accept that fact and try to work with it rather
than becoming frustrated. I'm not saying its easy.

ARKBAN

On 12/1/11 9:07 PM, Sergei wrote:
> I agree it is a real problem. Yet I disagree that the community shall
> become exceedinlgy self-moderating and less intellectually challenging
> (considered by some as "hostile").
>
> I see it as a problem when a person with a liberal arts degree and
> barely five years of coding experience expresses strong and mostly
> wrong opinions regarding Scala vs. Java, and the experienced members
> of the community start falling over themselves to placate him.
>
> I deliberately framed my previous post to be rather direct and
> inviting such strongly opinionated people to look in the mirror and
> ask themselves why do they choose to post such unbalanced personal
> views as an official decision of a well-known company.
>
> You see, I've been bitten by that bug before - junior programmers
> unwilling or incapable of learning how to properly use a technology,
> and resorting instead to its critique based on rather irrelevant micro-
> benchmarks.
>
> The corollary to the "insecure people tend to blame others
> excessively" is "very secure people tend to avoid blaming others
> altogether". I'm trying to be balanced here and say what Martin and
> other members of the community of comparable stature would perhaps
> never say - "Don't blame the tool, learn how to use it properly
> instead".
>
>
> On Dec 1, 10:52 am, Erik Osheim wrote:
>> I and many other people I know in the Scala community (who I would not
>> describe as "bright but not yet educated and not yet experienced junion
>> programmers" nor as people with "low self-esteem") think this is a real
>> problem, not just an anomaly.
>>
>> I'm not sure what it is going to take to change the discussion from "is
>> there a problem?" to "how do we make the community more welcoming
>> and/or moderate the level of hostility" but we clearly need something.
>> Maybe some kind of internal poll or survey? I don't know.
>>
>> Even if there is a mismatch between inexperienced newcomers and very
>> experienced and smart veterans, we must do better to keep discussions
>> friendly and relaxed (even when we disagree). In this I agree with Rex
>> Kerr's earlier post.
>>
>> By the way Sergei, while I understand that you're trying to help, the
>> way you framed your email paints people who are worried about (or
>> affected by) the tone of our community in insulting terms.
>>
>> Specifically, it describes people taking offense as either
>> "[projecting] self-loathing externally" or that they are "not yet
>> educated or experienced" or that they may lack "a bit of
>> genetically-determined mental capacity, education, and experience".
>>
>> This is the kind of thing I'd like to see less of.
>>

Sophie
Joined: 2011-11-10,
User offline. Last seen 42 years 45 weeks ago.
Re: Yammer moving away from Scala

On 2011-12-01 11:46:49 -0600, Sergei said:

> *Anything* can be interpreted as insulting by a person with low self-
> esteem. Quite often, such people tend to project self-loathing
> externally, exhibiting shocking ability to find and exaggerate flaws
> in even the most beautiful things.

Let me be one data point for you:

None of these apply to me : newbie, junior, not yet educated,
inexperienced, genetically short-changed.

Were I the target of some of the comments I have seen, I would be both
insulted and turned off.

As a reader of these comments targeting a third party, I am turned off.

Maintaining focus on strategic direction has nothing to do with being
pleasant and professional in a community discussion.

sergei
Joined: 2011-03-29,
User offline. Last seen 1 year 20 weeks ago.
Re: Yammer moving away from Scala

Believe me, I do understand and accept all the points about the
importance of staying calm, professional, unacceptability of ad
hominem attacks etc. on a discussion board like this one, or in real
life for that matter.

Yet I also understand the simple fact of life that staying calm and
passive while being unjustifyably and ruthlessly attacked may get one
killed.

You would see none of the reaction I exhibited, or maybe a bit of a
calm, professional participation, if the original Yammer observation
was positioned along the lines of "Scala's relative inefficiency of
code optimization compared to Java forced us to use N more servers to
handle the load, which cost us additional $X per year. However,
Scala's productivity advantage compared to Java allowed us to do the
work with M less programmers, which is saving us $Y per year".

Having the ballpark $X and $Y, it would be easier to discuss the
relative merits of Scala and Java in the context of Yammer ecosystem.
There could be other metrics worthy of discussion, such as time to
market advantage that Scala enabled (or maybe did not enable in that
context), the resulting number of users captured (or lost to
competition), and the sum total of the lifetime values of those users
for the company.

Yet that was not the case at all. I personally perceived the original
Yammer post as a corporate blame-shifting game which attacked Scala
community unjustifiably. I may be right, or I may be wrong in that
perception. If I'm right, calmly arguing with the perpetrator of such
attack about the technical matters will do no good. And if I turn out
to be wrong, and the severity of the Scala shortcomings listed in the
Yammer post is independently confirmed, I will not shy away from
apology.

On Dec 2, 7:52 am, Sophie wrote:
> On 2011-12-01 11:46:49 -0600, Sergei said:
>
> > *Anything* can be interpreted as insulting by a person with low self-
> > esteem. Quite often, such people tend to project self-loathing
> > externally, exhibiting shocking ability to find and exaggerate flaws
> > in even the most beautiful things.
>
> Let me be one data point for you:
>
> None of these apply to me : newbie, junior, not yet educated,
> inexperienced, genetically short-changed.
>
> Were I the target of some of the comments I have seen, I would be both
> insulted and turned off.
>
> As a reader of these comments targeting a third party, I am turned off.
>
> Maintaining focus on strategic direction has nothing to do with being
> pleasant and professional in a community discussion.

Tim P
Joined: 2011-07-28,
User offline. Last seen 1 year 4 weeks ago.
Re: Yammer moving away from Scala

If we're talking about people from java world then you might want
tostart them with the text forms. So avoid too many new symbols
intutorials - maybe if it's an obvious beginner use the text name
inscala-user or stackoverflow as an alternative when you're trying to
behelpful.
Chances are they won't get to foldLeft etc straight away
anyway,because they have to understand a bit functional programming
paradigmbefore they want to use it.
Once they get that far, and appreciate the use of the concepts,
thenchanging from textual to symbolic function names is just another
smallthing to learn.

Tim>
> On 3 December 2011 09:07, HamsterofDeath wrote:
>> Am 02.12.2011 23:23, schrieb Tony Morris:
>>
>> Are you going to let wrong people affect the API of scala? It can only get
>> better from here!
>>
>> On Dec 3, 2011 7:55 AM, "Simon Ochsenreither"
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I know, it sounds lame ... but can we get rid of /:, :\ and /:\?
>>>
>>> I'm sick and tired that the conclusion of “language experts” that Scala
>>> sucks is based to 90% on those three method names.
>>
>> tell them to use fold, foldLeft and foldRight if they don't want to use non
>> letter methods.
>>
>> if i listened to conclusions like this, i would now be very, very confused
>> because there are so many religions, and i am supposed to join any of them
>> because they are all correct.

Simon Ochsenreither
Joined: 2011-07-17,
User offline. Last seen 42 years 45 weeks ago.
Re: Yammer moving away from Scala
Hi Tim, hi Hamster, hi Tony,

Those people are not rational, and there is always the "but we still have to read other people's code" point.

Really, I know how folds work and I can explain them to people _interested_ in it. But the point is that I would prefer showing people more useful things instead of wasting my time to fight myths or to get beginners back to sanity after they go "OMGOMGOMG LINE NOISE OPERATOR OVERLOADING?!!?!?!?!?!".

I claim that we probably loose 90% of those interested in Scala when they see stuff like /: /:\ :\. We may not like it, but sometimes it might make sense to make some small changes for a greater good - we don't want people to be stuck with Java, right?

What about marking them with @migration and @bridge? We keep the methods, don't break compatibility, but make sure they stop appearing where they hurt?

Thanks and bye,

Simon
Kevin Wright 2
Joined: 2010-05-30,
User offline. Last seen 26 weeks 4 days ago.
Re: Yammer moving away from Scala
Worse still, we see folds used when they're really not the best solution.Consider this, perhaps the most heavily quoted example of a fold on teh interwebs:
    (0 /: someSeq)(_+_)
or
    someSeq.foldLeft(0)(_+_)
Yes, a left fold is the most efficient way to implement sum for a list, and it's important to know that (particularly if you're actually using lists).  But it most certainly won't be the most efficient solution on other data structures, especially not parallel ones!
Worse still, it's exposing implementation details and stating HOW the problem is being solved, not WHAT is being solved.  This isn't good declarative style.  The *correct* way to express this in Scala is, of course:
    someSeq.sum
I'd love to see more blogs/articles demonstrating the kind of expressiveness that allows us to write "someSeq.sum", aimed at newcomers and the curious. That, to me, is far more representative of Scala's power than the ability to invoke a left fold via /: 





On 3 December 2011 09:57, Simon Ochsenreither <simon [dot] ochsenreither [at] googlemail [dot] com> wrote:
Hi Tim, hi Hamster, hi Tony,

Those people are not rational, and there is always the "but we still have to read other people's code" point.

Really, I know how folds work and I can explain them to people _interested_ in it. But the point is that I would prefer showing people more useful things instead of wasting my time to fight myths or to get beginners back to sanity after they go "OMGOMGOMG LINE NOISE OPERATOR OVERLOADING?!!?!?!?!?!".

I claim that we probably loose 90% of those interested in Scala when they see stuff like /: /:\ :\. We may not like it, but sometimes it might make sense to make some small changes for a greater good - we don't want people to be stuck with Java, right?

What about marking them with @migration and @bridge? We keep the methods, don't break compatibility, but make sure they stop appearing where they hurt?

Thanks and bye,

Simon



Tony Morris 2
Joined: 2009-03-20,
User offline. Last seen 42 years 45 weeks ago.
Re: Yammer moving away from Scala

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

That method of teaching backfires, universally.

On 12/03/2011 07:25 PM, Tim Pigden wrote:
> If we're talking about people from java world then you might want
> tostart them with the text forms. So avoid too many new symbols
> intutorials - maybe if it's an obvious beginner use the text name
> inscala-user or stackoverflow as an alternative when you're trying to
> behelpful.
> Chances are they won't get to foldLeft etc straight away
> anyway,because they have to understand a bit functional programming
> paradigmbefore they want to use it.
> Once they get that far, and appreciate the use of the concepts,
> thenchanging from textual to symbolic function names is just another
> smallthing to learn.
>
> Tim>
>> On 3 December 2011 09:07, HamsterofDeath wrote:
>>> Am 02.12.2011 23:23, schrieb Tony Morris:
>>>
>>> Are you going to let wrong people affect the API of scala? It can only get
>>> better from here!
>>>
>>> On Dec 3, 2011 7:55 AM, "Simon Ochsenreither"
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I know, it sounds lame ... but can we get rid of /:, :\ and /:\?
>>>>
>>>> I'm sick and tired that the conclusion of “language experts” that Scala
>>>> sucks is based to 90% on those three method names.
>>>
>>> tell them to use fold, foldLeft and foldRight if they don't want to use non
>>> letter methods.
>>>
>>> if i listened to conclusions like this, i would now be very, very confused
>>> because there are so many religions, and i am supposed to join any of them
>>> because they are all correct.
>
>
>

H-star Development
Joined: 2010-04-14,
User offline. Last seen 2 years 26 weeks ago.
Re: Yammer moving away from Scala

Am 03.12.2011 10:57, schrieb Simon Ochsenreither:
> Hi Tim, hi Hamster, hi Tony,
>
> Those people are not rational, and there is always the "but we still
> have to read other people's code" point.
>
> Really, I know how folds work and I can explain them to people
> _interested_ in it. But the point is that I would prefer showing
> people more useful things instead of wasting my time to fight myths or
> to get beginners back to sanity after they go "OMGOMGOMG LINE NOISE
> OPERATOR OVERLOADING?!!?!?!?!?!".
>
> I claim that we probably loose 90% of those interested in Scala when
> they see stuff like /: /:\ :\. We may not like it, but sometimes it
> might make sense to make some small changes for a greater good - we
> don't want people to be stuck with Java, right?
>
> What about marking them with @migration and @bridge? We keep the
> methods, don't break compatibility, but make sure they stop appearing
> where they hurt?
>
> Thanks and bye,
>
> Simon
what exactly is the problem? there already are aliases.

and about those 90% - even if your number is correct and there really
are millions of software developers being scared off by things they
don't understand at first glance - i don't want people with such a
mindset having a strong influence. it'll slow down progress. look at
human history:

1. many people believe in a/are used to a
2. some claim b is much better than a
3. time passes. new, fresh and people not yet used to anything get to
choose between a and b
4. people choosing b either outperform those choosing a or not
5. new people prefer a or b depending on the outcome of 4.

Kevin Wright 2
Joined: 2010-05-30,
User offline. Last seen 26 weeks 4 days ago.
Re: Yammer moving away from Scala
That depends on WHAT you're teaching.
For example, if I want to teach type classes and how they can be used to create powerful abstract DSLs, then I've found Numeric and summing a collection to be a fantastic use-case.


On 3 December 2011 09:26, Tony Morris <tonymorris [at] gmail [dot] com> wrote:
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That method of teaching backfires, universally.

On 12/03/2011 07:25 PM, Tim Pigden wrote:
> If we're talking about people from java world then you might want
> tostart them with the text forms. So avoid too many new symbols
> intutorials - maybe if it's an obvious beginner use the text name
> inscala-user or stackoverflow as an alternative when you're trying to
> behelpful.
> Chances are they won't get to foldLeft etc straight away
> anyway,because they have to understand a bit functional programming
> paradigmbefore they want to use it.
> Once they get that far, and appreciate the use of the concepts,
> thenchanging from textual to symbolic function names is just another
> smallthing to learn.
>
> Tim>
>> On 3 December 2011 09:07, HamsterofDeath <h-star [at] gmx [dot] de> wrote:
>>> Am 02.12.2011 23:23, schrieb Tony Morris:
>>>
>>> Are you going to let wrong people affect the API of scala? It can only get
>>> better from here!
>>>
>>> On Dec 3, 2011 7:55 AM, "Simon Ochsenreither"
>>> <simon [dot] ochsenreither [at] googlemail [dot] com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I know, it sounds lame ... but can we get rid of /:, :\ and /:\?
>>>>
>>>> I'm sick and tired that the conclusion of “language experts” that Scala
>>>> sucks is based to 90% on those three method names.
>>>
>>> tell them to use fold, foldLeft and foldRight if they don't want to use non
>>> letter methods.
>>>
>>> if i listened to conclusions like this, i would now be very, very confused
>>> because there are so many religions, and i am supposed to join any of them
>>> because they are all correct.
>
>
>


- --
Tony Morris
http://tmorris.net/

skiyooka
Joined: 2011-05-14,
User offline. Last seen 1 year 22 weeks ago.
Re: Yammer moving away from Scala

>     (0 /: someSeq)(_+_)
>
> or
>
>     someSeq.foldLeft(0)(_+_)

To be honest, the first time I saw (_+_) my initial thought was that
looks like ass.

I've stuck with it and am liking Scala now but consider that top line
"(0 /: someSeq)(_+_)". I knew what it meant a few months ago but
today I would have to revisit the docs again to refresh my memory.
Most Java devs would probably run away screaming.

Sumio

Simon Ochsenreither
Joined: 2011-07-17,
User offline. Last seen 42 years 45 weeks ago.
Re: Yammer moving away from Scala
Malicious people with an "Anti-Scala" agenda will just happily ignore "sum".

Range is btw the first data structure which can compute sum in O(1) instead of O(n), so the difference between fold and sum is really substantial here.
Stefan Wagner
Joined: 2011-04-08,
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Re: Yammer moving away from Scala

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Am 03.12.2011 10:57, schrieb Simon Ochsenreither:

> I claim that we probably loose 90% of those interested in Scala when they
> see stuff like /: /:\ :\. We may not like it, but sometimes it might make
> sense to make some small changes for a greater good - we don't want people
> to be stuck with Java, right?

Probably 90% - and probably none. The number is made up from thin air,
and therefore useless - isn't it?

I don't remember which video-talk introduced /: to me, but it was one of
the first contacts I had with Scala, and it made me curious. I feared
only for a moment it could be hard to understand, but I adopted it
easily. I was astonished myself.

Maybe constructs like (0 /: xs) (_ + _) attract more new developers than
you know? Nerds like to print such things on their T-Shirts.

odersky
Joined: 2008-07-29,
User offline. Last seen 45 weeks 6 days ago.
Re: Yammer moving away from Scala


On Sat, Dec 3, 2011 at 5:17 PM, Simon Ochsenreither <simon [dot] ochsenreither [at] googlemail [dot] com> wrote:
Malicious people with an "Anti-Scala" agenda will just happily ignore "sum".

Range is btw the first data structure which can compute sum in O(1) instead of O(n), so the difference between fold and sum is really substantial here.

The problem is that malicious people with an anti Scala agenda will immediately latch on to the next thing that looks strange to them -- and there are sufficiently many of those in Scala! So removing things to appease them will never work.
 -- Martin

Stefan Wagner
Joined: 2011-04-08,
User offline. Last seen 42 years 45 weeks ago.
Re: Yammer moving away from Scala

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Am 03.12.2011 10:57, schrieb Simon Ochsenreither:

> I claim that we probably loose 90% of those interested in Scala when they
> see stuff like /: /:\ :\. We may not like it, but sometimes it might make
> sense to make some small changes for a greater good - we don't want people
> to be stuck with Java, right?

Probably 90% - and probably none. The number is made up from thin air,
and therefore useless - isn't it?

I don't remember which video-talk introduced /: to me, but it was one of
the first contacts I had with Scala, and it made me curious. I feared
only for a moment it could be hard to understand, but I adopted it
easily. I was astonished myself.

Maybe constructs like (0 /: xs) (_ + _) attract more new developers than
you know? Nerds like to print such things on their T-Shirts.

Pierce Wetter
Joined: 2011-09-01,
User offline. Last seen 42 years 45 weeks ago.
Re: Yammer moving away from Scala

Sent from my iPhone. Thanks Steve.

>
> The problem is that malicious people with an anti Scala agenda will immediately latch on to the next thing that looks strange to them -- and there are sufficiently many of those in Scala!

In any programming language there is a tension between language and "math".

When I first looked at perl I thought "yuck". Then I read Effective Perl and realized it wasn't line noise it was math.

Then I liked Perl because I'm good at math. But I still don't like writing more than a page of Perl code because it's modularizaion abilities suck. TBD in Perl 6, but that's 10 years and counting now.

For me Scala is the same way. There are a lot of cool features in Scala. But concistency and simplicity are not the same things as terseness. _ + _ is not nearly as clear to me as perl's $a + $b.

Scala to me seems a little too academically focused. It's used by people who are most comfortable programming in a mathematical cognitive mode, it seems to require that mental state to do well.

But only about 10% of what I do requires that sort of cognitive mode which means programming in Scala requires a lot of cognitive switches. The other 90% of my time is docs people debugging and design.

The point people here are making about /: vs foldLeft is really part of a broader point about math vs. language and simplicity vs terseness. I would take those broader points to heart:

How can we make Scala simpler without sacrificing power?

What does idiomatic Scala look like?

Just because something is allowed doesn't mean it should be done! Terseness is a much more minor virtual compared to consistency and simplicity.

Pierce

P.S. The older I get the more I'm starting to consider terseness more of a sin than a virtue. All my code has to pass the 3am test: if it's 3am and I'm debugging this code can I understand it without coffee? I'm not sure :/ (_+_) passes that test.
>

Ken McDonald
Joined: 2011-02-13,
User offline. Last seen 42 years 45 weeks ago.
Re: Yammer moving away from Scala

I've stuck with it and am liking Scala now but consider that top line
"(0 /: someSeq)(_+_)".  I knew what it meant a few months ago but
today I would have to revisit the docs again to refresh my memory.
Most Java devs would probably run away screaming.


The only thing there that might give an experienced Scala user pause is "/:", and only because it has an alias they might have used instead. As for the rest of it, this is the tradeoff between true Higher-Order Programming (HOP), and Standard Programming (SP). In HOP, you encounter short lines that make your brains hurt for a time. In SP, you encounter multiline constructs that do not make your brain hurt and accomplish the same thing. Question: What takes you the least amount of time to understand? That should be the winner.
OF COURSE, it is possible to write bad HOP code, just as it is possible to write bad SP code. HOP lines should not be too long or too dense, comments should be used to make particularly tricky meanings clear, all the standard stuff.
Ken 
Tony Morris 2
Joined: 2009-03-20,
User offline. Last seen 42 years 45 weeks ago.
Re: Yammer moving away from Scala

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So you're prepared to sacrifice utility for popularity? How far should
we take that?

This assumes that even if you did alter these functions for the purpose
of appeasement that popularity would increase. Yes, these people are
irrational because their position is inconsistent. I can assure you that
even if you did go to the lengths you are suggesting here, you have not
contributed to your goal of popularity -- the subject would simply
distract themselves with some other meaningless discussion. Have you not
seen this happen enough times already?

On 12/03/2011 07:57 PM, Simon Ochsenreither wrote:
> Hi Tim, hi Hamster, hi Tony,
>
> Those people are not rational, and there is always the "but we still have
> to read other people's code" point.
>
> Really, I know how folds work and I can explain them to people _interested_
> in it. But the point is that I would prefer showing people more useful
> things instead of wasting my time to fight myths or to get beginners back
> to sanity after they go "OMGOMGOMG LINE NOISE OPERATOR
> OVERLOADING?!!?!?!?!?!".
>
> I claim that we probably loose 90% of those interested in Scala when they
> see stuff like /: /:\ :\. We may not like it, but sometimes it might make
> sense to make some small changes for a greater good - we don't want people
> to be stuck with Java, right?
>
> What about marking them with @migration and @bridge? We keep the methods,
> don't break compatibility, but make sure they stop appearing where they
> hurt?
>
> Thanks and bye,
>
> Simon
>

Lars Hupel
Joined: 2010-06-23,
User offline. Last seen 44 weeks 3 days ago.
Re: Yammer moving away from Scala

> P.S. The older I get the more I'm starting to consider terseness
> more of a sin than a virtue. All my code has to pass the 3am test: if
> it's 3am and I'm debugging this code can I understand it without
> coffee? I'm not sure :/ (_+_) passes that test.

Almost any code fails this metric. Debugging and coding at a time when
you are not able to mentally focus on what you are doing without coffee
is a waste of time.

(Disclosure: I wrote many lines at 3am which seemed simple enough at
this time but had embarrassing bugs after some hours of sleep. Also true
for reviewing code others had written at 3am.)

Linas
Joined: 2009-09-02,
User offline. Last seen 42 years 45 weeks ago.
Re: Yammer moving away from Scala

Seriously, this debate is getting reduced to cult like "us versus the unseen but otherwise very real outside evil" nonsense. There are no malicious people with antiscala agenda. There are on the other hand "the few, the proud and the very loud" who just cant pass the oppurtunity to tell how stupid everyone else is, because they dont't understand or use or want to use the style and mindset of pure FP.

Linas.

On Dec 3, 2011 6:17 PM, "Simon Ochsenreither" <simon [dot] ochsenreither [at] googlemail [dot] com> wrote:
Malicious people with an "Anti-Scala" agenda will just happily ignore "sum".

Range is btw the first data structure which can compute sum in O(1) instead of O(n), so the difference between fold and sum is really substantial here.
ichoran
Joined: 2009-08-14,
User offline. Last seen 2 years 3 weeks ago.
Re: Yammer moving away from Scala
On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 6:00 AM, Linas <vejobrolis [at] gmail [dot] com> wrote:

There are no malicious people with antiscala agenda. There are on the other hand ...


It's really hard to tell who exists and who does not.  There are people who sometimes act the way one would expect grumpy Scala-hostile people to act, and there are people who sometimes act the way that one would expect snooty holier-than-thou people would act.

I think that this just points out that _there are no easily-found right answers_ with discussions like these.  It then becomes a matter of opinion, and the only recourse available to one when there are no rational arguments to draw upon (either because they do not exist, or because they are too much work to make) is to become increasingly shrill.

I have seen disappointing numbers of posts that say essentially:
  "I find X confusing/displeasing _therefore_ we should outlaw X"
and also disappointing numbers of posts saying, more or less:
  "All _true_ programmers love X, everyone else is just mucking around"

Stepping back and concluding that X is useful for some but that others don't like it so much is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.  "You can use X, but don't insist that I like it," works pretty well for food, music, pointing device, editor, OS, etc. etc..

  --Rex

tolsen77
Joined: 2008-10-08,
User offline. Last seen 1 year 38 weeks ago.
Re: Yammer moving away from Scala
As for harsh comments on the mailing list, just apply little moderation and hand out suspensions when required. But, FP users of Scala shouldn't end up as the recipient for all problems related to Scala, which is the impression I get from comments and blog posts. There is also a hint of envy that get exaggerated because readers lack the required background, and proponents failure to acknowledge those requirements. I do agree though that people need to restrain themselves on the mailing lists.

On 4 December 2011 12:00, Linas <vejobrolis [at] gmail [dot] com> wrote:

Seriously, this debate is getting reduced to cult like "us versus the unseen but otherwise very real outside evil" nonsense. There are no malicious people with antiscala agenda. There are on the other hand "the few, the proud and the very loud" who just cant pass the oppurtunity to tell how stupid everyone else is, because they dont't understand or use or want to use the style and mindset of pure FP.

Linas.

On Dec 3, 2011 6:17 PM, "Simon Ochsenreither" <simon [dot] ochsenreither [at] googlemail [dot] com> wrote:
Malicious people with an "Anti-Scala" agenda will just happily ignore "sum".

Range is btw the first data structure which can compute sum in O(1) instead of O(n), so the difference between fold and sum is really substantial here.

Joshua.Suereth
Joined: 2008-09-02,
User offline. Last seen 32 weeks 5 days ago.
Re: Yammer moving away from Scala
Right.  The issue of moderation is not "FP vs. OO" or "Prgamatics vs. Academics".  Those are just lines people like to distract us with to get away with poor behavior.  
The line is "Those who insult or detract from another persons credentials rather than addressing a technical point", vs. "Those of us who try to read and learn on the mailing list, rather than proving how awesome we are, or proving how dumb someone else is".  
If you take the 'high' road, your point will come across much better.  Let's stick to technical discussions and/or hilarious jokes not directed at individuals.
- Josh

On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Trond Olsen <trond [at] steinbit [dot] org> wrote:
As for harsh comments on the mailing list, just apply little moderation and hand out suspensions when required. But, FP users of Scala shouldn't end up as the recipient for all problems related to Scala, which is the impression I get from comments and blog posts. There is also a hint of envy that get exaggerated because readers lack the required background, and proponents failure to acknowledge those requirements. I do agree though that people need to restrain themselves on the mailing lists.

On 4 December 2011 12:00, Linas <vejobrolis [at] gmail [dot] com> wrote:

Seriously, this debate is getting reduced to cult like "us versus the unseen but otherwise very real outside evil" nonsense. There are no malicious people with antiscala agenda. There are on the other hand "the few, the proud and the very loud" who just cant pass the oppurtunity to tell how stupid everyone else is, because they dont't understand or use or want to use the style and mindset of pure FP.

Linas.

On Dec 3, 2011 6:17 PM, "Simon Ochsenreither" <simon [dot] ochsenreither [at] googlemail [dot] com> wrote:
Malicious people with an "Anti-Scala" agenda will just happily ignore "sum".

Range is btw the first data structure which can compute sum in O(1) instead of O(n), so the difference between fold and sum is really substantial here.


Ken McDonald
Joined: 2011-02-13,
User offline. Last seen 42 years 45 weeks ago.
Re: Yammer moving away from Scala


On Sunday, December 4, 2011 9:57:04 AM UTC-6, Josh Suereth wrote:
Right.  The issue of moderation is not "FP vs. OO" or "Prgamatics vs. Academics".  Those are just lines people like to distract us with to get away with poor behavior.  

The FP vs. OO thing does need some guidelines; specifically, FP advocates should not automatically start each response with "Have you considered a pure functional approach?" (OK, I know that's not their automatic response, but sometimes it sure feels like it.) Note that OO advocates do not seem to feel the same compulsion :-)
Pragmatics vs. Academics is a fuzzy by nonetheless real and troublesome divide. I've been on both sides. I don't know how to deal with it. As an Academic turned Pragmatic, my take is that many (most?) Academics simply cannot understand real-world problems because they have not been adequately exposed to them. But pretending there is not a difference there is much the same as saying Islam and Christianity are the same because they are both based on the Old Testament. There is a real difference there, and it creates problems.
Ken
Derek Williams 3
Joined: 2011-08-12,
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Re: Yammer moving away from Scala
On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 7:22 PM, Kenneth McDonald <ykkenmcd [at] gmail [dot] com> wrote:
On Sunday, December 4, 2011 9:57:04 AM UTC-6, Josh Suereth wrote:
Right.  The issue of moderation is not "FP vs. OO" or "Prgamatics vs. Academics".  Those are just lines people like to distract us with to get away with poor behavior.  

The FP vs. OO thing does need some guidelines; specifically, FP advocates should not automatically start each response with "Have you considered a pure functional approach?" (OK, I know that's not their automatic response, but sometimes it sure feels like it.) Note that OO advocates do not seem to feel the same compulsion :-)

Maybe we can all come to a compromise. No more "Have you considered a pure functional approach?" as long as there is no more "Scala is too complex".
--
Derek Williams
Derek Williams 3
Joined: 2011-08-12,
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Re: Yammer moving away from Scala

Okay, more serious reply this time. Do you really think it would help the Scala community if functional solutions were not provided to people looking for help? I would think that it would help people to understand the practical uses of functional programming.

Ken McDonald
Joined: 2011-02-13,
User offline. Last seen 42 years 45 weeks ago.
Re: Yammer moving away from Scala
Maybe we can all come to a compromise. No more "Have you considered a pure functional approach?" as long as there is no more "Scala is too complex".
--
Derek Williams
I believe we should allow "Scala is too complex" from newcomers. For them, it is a valid concern, and the rest of us should be interested in hearing that and addressing their concerns. I have not heard "Scala is too complex" from oldtimers, but have heard "Have you considered a pure functional approach?" from oldtimers many, many times. :-)
Ken
Derek Williams 3
Joined: 2011-08-12,
User offline. Last seen 42 years 45 weeks ago.
Re: Yammer moving away from Scala

Isn't "have you considered a functional approach" a valid response to "Scala is too complex"?

On Dec 4, 2011 7:57 PM, "Kenneth McDonald" <ykkenmcd [at] gmail [dot] com> wrote:
Maybe we can all come to a compromise. No more "Have you considered a pure functional approach?" as long as there is no more "Scala is too complex".
--
Derek Williams
I believe we should allow "Scala is too complex" from newcomers. For them, it is a valid concern, and the rest of us should be interested in hearing that and addressing their concerns. I have not heard "Scala is too complex" from oldtimers, but have heard "Have you considered a pure functional approach?" from oldtimers many, many times. :-)
Ken
Naftoli Gugenheim
Joined: 2008-12-17,
User offline. Last seen 42 years 45 weeks ago.
Re: Yammer moving away from Scala
Sorry, but I don't agree with that description of history (specifically #5)! :) People adopt new things because it's what everyone else is doing.

On Sat, Dec 3, 2011 at 6:37 AM, HamsterofDeath <h-star [at] gmx [dot] de> wrote:
Am 03.12.2011 10:57, schrieb Simon Ochsenreither:
> Hi Tim, hi Hamster, hi Tony,
>
> Those people are not rational, and there is always the "but we still
> have to read other people's code" point.
>
> Really, I know how folds work and I can explain them to people
> _interested_ in it. But the point is that I would prefer showing
> people more useful things instead of wasting my time to fight myths or
> to get beginners back to sanity after they go "OMGOMGOMG LINE NOISE
> OPERATOR OVERLOADING?!!?!?!?!?!".
>
> I claim that we probably loose 90% of those interested in Scala when
> they see stuff like /: /:\ :\. We may not like it, but sometimes it
> might make sense to make some small changes for a greater good - we
> don't want people to be stuck with Java, right?
>
> What about marking them with @migration and @bridge? We keep the
> methods, don't break compatibility, but make sure they stop appearing
> where they hurt?
>
> Thanks and bye,
>
> Simon
what exactly is the problem? there already are aliases.

and about those 90% - even if your number is correct and there really
are millions of software developers being scared off by things they
don't understand at first glance - i don't want people with such a
mindset having a strong influence. it'll slow down progress. look at
human history:

1. many people believe in a/are used to a
2. some claim b is much better than a
3. time passes. new, fresh and people not yet used to anything get to
choose between a and b
4. people choosing b either outperform those choosing a or not
5. new people prefer a or b depending on the outcome of 4.



Naftoli Gugenheim
Joined: 2008-12-17,
User offline. Last seen 42 years 45 weeks ago.
Re: Yammer moving away from Scala
No one said anyone should pretend anything. But that has nothing to do with moderating. What needs to be moderated is posts that disrespect others.

On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 9:22 PM, Kenneth McDonald <ykkenmcd [at] gmail [dot] com> wrote:


On Sunday, December 4, 2011 9:57:04 AM UTC-6, Josh Suereth wrote:
Right.  The issue of moderation is not "FP vs. OO" or "Prgamatics vs. Academics".  Those are just lines people like to distract us with to get away with poor behavior.  

The FP vs. OO thing does need some guidelines; specifically, FP advocates should not automatically start each response with "Have you considered a pure functional approach?" (OK, I know that's not their automatic response, but sometimes it sure feels like it.) Note that OO advocates do not seem to feel the same compulsion :-)
Pragmatics vs. Academics is a fuzzy by nonetheless real and troublesome divide. I've been on both sides. I don't know how to deal with it. As an Academic turned Pragmatic, my take is that many (most?) Academics simply cannot understand real-world problems because they have not been adequately exposed to them. But pretending there is not a difference there is much the same as saying Islam and Christianity are the same because they are both based on the Old Testament. There is a real difference there, and it creates problems.
Ken

paulbutcher
Joined: 2010-03-08,
User offline. Last seen 10 weeks 5 days ago.
Re: Yammer moving away from Scala

On 5 Dec 2011, at 06:52, Naftoli Gugenheim wrote:
> No one said anyone should pretend anything. But that has nothing to do with moderating. What needs to be moderated is posts that disrespect others.

Absolutely. The problem is not, and never has been, that there are disagreements and debates between members of the Scala community. That is inevitable and healthy. What is not healthy is when those debates are carried out in a disrespectful and insulting manner.

I strongly hope that nobody feels the need to self-censor the *content* of anything they choose to post to this list. What would be valuable, by contrast, is some self-censorship of the *tone*.

--
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