The Scala community

Here's a recent mail on reddit, which we should take very seriously.

I agree with the points in the mail. I think the community has a major job to do to help people get into the language instead being obscure and riding academic high horses.

I would like to start with this list. Please everyone, remember: This list is for helping people getting into Scala and getting their questions answered. That's the primary purpose of scala-user. If you are after intellectual arguments, no problem, but please use scala-debate. If you want to force an intellectual argument on a newbie that asked a simple question, that's just bad style.

Thanks

 -- Martin

=======================================================================

I tried to use Scala, and found it has one major disadvantage going for it, the community.

Most of the developers for Scala and community members I interacted with were very focused on being right from a computer science perspective, and from their own view on how things should be done. They were not at all focused on helping developers actually get work done. This extended to the libraries that come with Scala. If they didn't like how you did something, they made the libraries much harder to accomplish that task with. As an example, appending to a list requires a rather cryptic syntax (myList :::= "something").

Along with that, Scala seems to be in love with symbols. They use them everywhere, and many times portions of the syntax are optional, so you can see different incarnations of the same syntax look very different in different places.

Also Scala has a very high learning curve for traditional Java developers. Instead of making this curve workable by gradually introducing developers to advanced features, the Scala libraries and all it's documentation force you to see all the concepts all at once. They often do a very poor job of explaining why they force you to do things their way, and just tell you to do them.

While the Scala language technically lets you program in a way similar to Java, but with advanced features as needed, the libraries are written in a way to make this nearly impossible.

What all this means is that a developer from any traditional OOP language, or less complex language is going to have a very very hard time learning Scala, and in the end the time you lost learning won't make up for any advantage Scala's 'way' provides.

As long as the Scala community is so obtuse and focused on being right their way, as opposed to helping developers get into the language, Scala will remain a nitch language.

Re: The Scala community

Added by Tim P on 2011-10-06, 14:47

This type of link, also blogs with useful teaching content, things
like Tony M's exercise with Option should all be on some sort links or
resources page in scala-lang.org. At present the Learning Scala page
doesn't seem to permit any end-user comments or amendments and there
is no other obvious place for logged in users to put stuff.

Who controls the scala-lang site?

Tim

On 6 October 2011 14:13, Razvan Cojocaru wrote:
> I found this to be an excellent introduction, back when I started. I think a lot of people could do much worse than starting here as well?
>
> http://www.codecommit.com/blog/scala/roundup-scala-for-java-refugees
>
> it could use some updating and simplification / cleanup, but overall I think it accomplishes its goal...
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: scala-user [at] googlegroups [dot] com [mailto:scala-user [at] googlegroups [dot] com] On Behalf Of Dennis Haupt
> Sent: October-06-11 7:26 AM
> To: Dennis Haupt; scala-user [at] googlegroups [dot] com; scala-user [at] googlegroups [dot] com
> Subject: Re: [scala-user] The Scala community
>
> another thing that came to my mind:
>
> what i missed was a really easy tutorial that shows scala's features step by step, islolated from each other. on scala-lang.org, i found documentation/examples about lots of features, but most of them required me to already know about other features.
>
> you can tutorial someone about many features isolated from each other:
> closures (start at anonymous classes, then go to closure, then go to "use method as parameter that becomes a closure) match (simple version, without unapply) tuples type parameter variance case classes (auto equals & hashcode, maybe intrudoce unapply here) automatic fields in classes (a contructor parameter automatically becoming a field) collections (start at arraybuffer, listbuffer and mutable hashmap since they are the most common ones used in OOP, then go to immutable collections) _ (by _ i really mean _, the wildcard thing. i do not meant _ as a wildcard in a sense of "anything else". i literally meant _)
>
> then the libary builder / DSL stuff:
> implicits, manifests, currying....
>
>
>
>
>
> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
>> Datum: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 11:19:32 +0200
>> Von: "Dennis Haupt"
>> An: scala-user [at] googlegroups [dot] com, scala-user [at] googlegroups [dot] com
>> Betreff: Re: [scala-user] The Scala community
>
>> to pour in my experience:
>> * the community was mostly helpful to me. in most cases, i got some
>> academic and some pragmatic answers. the pragmatic ones are the ones i
>> wanted and needed at first.
>> later, as my understanding grew, the academic ones became more
>> interesting.
>>
>> * my biggest obstacle when learning scala coming from java were to
>> understand "method signature rampages". immutable datastructures where
>> quite easy, the collections were easy to use, and closures were easy to understand.
>>
>> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
>> > Datum: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 00:56:41 -0700 (PDT)
>> > Von: martin
>> > An: scala-user [at] googlegroups [dot] com
>> > Betreff: [scala-user] The Scala community
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > Here's a recent mail on reddit, which we should take very seriously.
>> >
>> > I agree with the points in the mail. I think the community has a
>> > major
>> job
>> > to do to help people get into the language instead being obscure and
>> > riding academic high horses.
>> >
>> > I would like to start with this list. Please everyone, remember:
>> > This
>> list
>> > is for helping people getting into Scala and getting their questions
>> > answered. That's the primary purpose of scala-user. If you are after
>> > intellectual arguments, no problem, but please use scala-debate. If
>> > you want to force an intellectual argument on a newbie that asked a
>> > simple question, that's just bad style.
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> >
>> >  -- Martin
>> >
>> > ====================================================================
>> > ===
>> >
>> > I tried to use Scala, and found it has one major disadvantage going
>> > for it, the community.
>> >
>> > Most of the developers for Scala and community members I interacted
>> > with were very focused on being right from a computer science
>> > perspective,
>> and
>> > from their own view on how things should be done. They were not at
>> > all focused on helping developers actually get work done. This
>> > extended to
>> the
>> > libraries that come with Scala. If they didn't like how you did
>> something,
>> > they made the libraries much harder to accomplish that task with. As
>> > an example, appending to a list requires a rather cryptic syntax
>> > (myList
>> :::=
>> > "something").
>> >
>> > Along with that, Scala seems to be in love with symbols. They use
>> > them everywhere, and many times portions of the syntax are optional,
>> > so you
>> can
>> > see different incarnations of the same syntax look very different in
>> > different places.
>> >
>> > Also Scala has a very high learning curve for traditional Java
>> developers.
>> > Instead of making this curve workable by gradually introducing
>> developers
>> > to
>> > advanced features, the Scala libraries and all it's documentation
>> > force you to see all the concepts all at once. They often do a very
>> > poor job of explaining why they force you to do things their way,
>> > and just tell you
>> to
>> > do them.
>> >
>> > While the Scala language technically lets you program in a way
>> > similar
>> to
>> > Java, but with advanced features as needed, the libraries are
>> > written in
>> a
>> > way to make this nearly impossible.
>> >
>> > What all this means is that a developer from any traditional OOP
>> language,
>> > or less complex language is going to have a very very hard time
>> > learning Scala, and in the end the time you lost learning won't make
>> > up for any advantage Scala's 'way' provides.
>> >
>> > As long as the Scala community is so obtuse and focused on being
>> > right their way, as opposed to helping developers get into the
>> > language, Scala will remain a nitch language.
>
>

Re: The Scala community

Added by Tim P on 2011-10-06, 10:37

I think there's a fundamental problem with this list and its contents,
from that perspective: most of the questions here and certainly most
of the debate and the answers are in the esoteric/academic camp. There
are relatively few "pragmatic" questions but those that do exist tend
to be answered quite quickly and helpfully. So in terms of helping
newbies, the list functions quite effectively - certainly I received
help when required.

The problem is that if you just scan the list as a newbie, most of the
questions are incomprehensible, let alone the answers.

I don't know whether it would work, but what about splitting the list
- maybe "scala-advanced" and "scala-help" or something like that? It
might work as long as a few of you (helpful) experts out there were
prepared to hang around in the scala-help list

Tim

On 6 October 2011 10:19, Dennis Haupt wrote:
> to pour in my experience:
> * the community was mostly helpful to me. in most cases, i got some academic and some pragmatic answers. the pragmatic ones are the ones i wanted and needed at first.
> later, as my understanding grew, the academic ones became more interesting.
>
> * my biggest obstacle when learning scala coming from java were to understand "method signature rampages". immutable datastructures where quite easy, the collections were easy to use, and closures were easy to understand.
>
> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
>> Datum: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 00:56:41 -0700 (PDT)
>> Von: martin
>> An: scala-user [at] googlegroups [dot] com
>> Betreff: [scala-user] The Scala community
>
>>
>>
>> Here's a recent mail on reddit, which we should take very seriously.
>>
>> I agree with the points in the mail. I think the community has a major job
>> to do to help people get into the language instead being obscure and
>> riding
>> academic high horses.
>>
>> I would like to start with this list. Please everyone, remember: This list
>> is for helping people getting into Scala and getting their questions
>> answered. That's the primary purpose of scala-user. If you are after
>> intellectual arguments, no problem, but please use scala-debate. If you
>> want
>> to force an intellectual argument on a newbie that asked a simple
>> question,
>> that's just bad style.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>  -- Martin
>>
>> =======================================================================
>>
>> I tried to use Scala, and found it has one major disadvantage going for
>> it,
>> the community.
>>
>> Most of the developers for Scala and community members I interacted with
>> were very focused on being right from a computer science perspective, and
>> from their own view on how things should be done. They were not at all
>> focused on helping developers actually get work done. This extended to the
>> libraries that come with Scala. If they didn't like how you did something,
>> they made the libraries much harder to accomplish that task with. As an
>> example, appending to a list requires a rather cryptic syntax (myList :::=
>> "something").
>>
>> Along with that, Scala seems to be in love with symbols. They use them
>> everywhere, and many times portions of the syntax are optional, so you can
>> see different incarnations of the same syntax look very different in
>> different places.
>>
>> Also Scala has a very high learning curve for traditional Java developers.
>> Instead of making this curve workable by gradually introducing developers
>> to
>> advanced features, the Scala libraries and all it's documentation force
>> you
>> to see all the concepts all at once. They often do a very poor job of
>> explaining why they force you to do things their way, and just tell you to
>> do them.
>>
>> While the Scala language technically lets you program in a way similar to
>> Java, but with advanced features as needed, the libraries are written in a
>> way to make this nearly impossible.
>>
>> What all this means is that a developer from any traditional OOP language,
>> or less complex language is going to have a very very hard time learning
>> Scala, and in the end the time you lost learning won't make up for any
>> advantage Scala's 'way' provides.
>>
>> As long as the Scala community is so obtuse and focused on being right
>> their
>> way, as opposed to helping developers get into the language, Scala will
>> remain a nitch language.
>

Re: The Scala community

Added by Philippe Lhoste on 2011-10-06, 14:57

On 06/10/2011 11:30, Tim Pigden wrote:
> I don't know whether it would work, but what about splitting the list
> - maybe "scala-advanced" and "scala-help" or something like that? It
> might work as long as a few of you (helpful) experts out there were
> prepared to hang around in the scala-help list

I tend to see scala-users as scala-help, and scala-language as scala-advanced.
From the site [1]:

scala-language: The main forum for discussions and news about the Scala language. (OK,
that's quite generic, but a bit on the theoretical side.)

scala-users: The main forum for questions and discussions about the Scala programming. In
particular, the following should go to this list:
newbie questions.
programming experiences and questions.

[1] http://www.scala-lang.org/node/199

Re: Re: The Scala community

Added by Cay Horstmann on 2011-10-06, 15:47
It is important that we get this straight. I am at Java One right now, and I can't tell you how many people I've met who had a negative impression of Scala. Some of it is from pure hearsay, but the mailing list really doesn't help.

If we want Scala to succeed as a language that is widely used and not just admired, let's come to grips with the fact that not all users have the same needs. The mailing list is an important contact point, so let's fix it.

I think Tim's suggestion of scala-help and scala-advanced hits the nail on the head.

I just looked at http://groups.google.com/group/scala-user/browse_thread/thread/770172e72892d8f3. It is a good example of the kind of discussion that, while of legitimate interest to some, is off-putting to others. 

That discussion doesn't really belong to scala-language or to scala-debate.

scala-advanced would be just the right place for it.

Cheers,

Cay

PS. @Phillippe: Old-timers know how to translate scala-users to scala-help, and SOME old-timers know to move advanced discussions to scala-language. Someone who just comes to Scala won't know of those conventions. Why not help them out?


On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 6:55 AM, Philippe Lhoste <PhiLho [at] gmx [dot] net> wrote:
On 06/10/2011 11:30, Tim Pigden wrote:
I don't know whether it would work, but what about splitting the list
- maybe "scala-advanced" and "scala-help" or something like that? It
might work  as long as a few of you (helpful) experts out there were
prepared to hang around in the scala-help list

I tend to see scala-users as scala-help, and scala-language as scala-advanced.
From the site [1]:

scala-language: The main forum for discussions and news about the Scala language. (OK, that's quite generic, but a bit on the theoretical side.)

scala-users: The main forum for questions and discussions about the Scala programming. In particular, the following should go to this list:
   newbie questions.
   programming experiences and questions.

[1] http://www.scala-lang.org/node/199

RE: Re: The Scala community

Added by Chris Marshall on 2011-10-06, 15:17
My understanding was that scala-language is essentially for scala committers.
If we add scala-advanced and scala-beginner, this is what will probably happen (it certainly did on the old Java forums).
 - 25% of newbies ask questions on scala-advanced, for no readily apparent reason. This results in sharp responses - 5% of newbies cross-post questions to both scala-advanced and scala-beginner. This also results in sharp responses - 70% of newbies ask question on scala-beginner. They get no answers, or inaccurate answers because the only people watching the deluge of omg-this-was-asked-last-week-rofl questions are other newbies. They then re-post on scala-advanced, resulting in sharp responses
There are a ton of resources out there for Java people. There is Stack Overflow, Daniel Spiewak's blogs, Tony's exercises, videos, slides. You name it. There's even the whole 1st edition of PiS for free. I'm not saying that sometimes this community can't be a little intimidating but we should sometimes pause and ask ourselves whether someone who runs off at the first sight of three colons (and I am not talking about the Human Centipede) might just *not* be the type of person who is going to get into scala, regardless of what steps are taken to accommodate them.
Chris

> To: scala-user [at] googlegroups [dot] com
> From: PhiLho [at] GMX [dot] net
> Subject: [scala-user] Re: The Scala community
> Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 15:55:36 +0200
>
> On 06/10/2011 11:30, Tim Pigden wrote:
> > I don't know whether it would work, but what about splitting the list
> > - maybe "scala-advanced" and "scala-help" or something like that? It
> > might work as long as a few of you (helpful) experts out there were
> > prepared to hang around in the scala-help list
>
> I tend to see scala-users as scala-help, and scala-language as scala-advanced.
> From the site [1]:
>
> scala-language: The main forum for discussions and news about the Scala language. (OK,
> that's quite generic, but a bit on the theoretical side.)
>
> scala-users: The main forum for questions and discussions about the Scala programming. In
> particular, the following should go to this list:
> newbie questions.
> programming experiences and questions.
>
> [1] http://www.scala-lang.org/node/199
>
> --
> Philippe Lhoste
> -- (near) Paris -- France
> -- http://Phi.Lho.free.fr
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
>

Re: The Scala community

Added by Philippe Lhoste on 2011-10-06, 17:27

On 06/10/2011 16:12, Chris Marshall wrote:
> My understanding was that scala-language is essentially for scala committers.

I thought scala-internals was for them...

RE: Re: The Scala community

Added by Chris Marshall on 2011-10-06, 18:17
You are absolutely right: my mistake

> To: scala-user [at] googlegroups [dot] com
> From: PhiLho [at] GMX [dot] net
> Subject: [scala-user] Re: The Scala community
> Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 18:07:16 +0200
>
> On 06/10/2011 16:12, Chris Marshall wrote:
> > My understanding was that scala-language is essentially for scala committers.
>
> I thought scala-internals was for them...
>
> --
> Philippe Lhoste
> -- (near) Paris -- France
> -- http://Phi.Lho.free.fr
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
>

Re: Re: The Scala community

Added by Alex Repain on 2011-10-06, 16:17


2011/10/6 Chris Marshall <oxbow_lakes [at] hotmail [dot] com>
My understanding was that scala-language is essentially for scala committers.
If we add scala-advanced and scala-beginner, this is what will probably happen (it certainly did on the old Java forums).
 - 25% of newbies ask questions on scala-advanced, for no readily apparent reason. This results in sharp responses

  These, we can't help. Or at least not totally. A system that would preventively enumerate the guidelines, or make them obvious to the eye, would help. I'm thinking subforums short descriptions, but it's obviously not the way mailing lists would implement that.
 
 - 5% of newbies cross-post questions to both scala-advanced and scala-beginner. This also results in sharp responses

Same answer, almost entirely. Plus, asking a question this way is sharp. I assume these kind of askers won't be afraid or suprised by the sharpness of the answers ; and if they don't realize that their way is itself sharp, well, it's a duty of ours to teach them :).
 
 - 70% of newbies ask question on scala-beginner. They get no answers, or inaccurate answers because the only people watching the deluge of omg-this-was-asked-last-week-rofl questions are other newbies. They then re-post on scala-advanced, resulting in sharp responses

a scala-beginner list is not meant to be a kid pool. Obviously most of the users of scala-advanced should stay on scala-beginner and orient the answers. This is a question of good will. If the smart people here don't have the good will to help others get the correct answers that they know, when needed, then I don't know why we are even discussing this thread.
Although I'm not very fond of the idea of a user hierarchy, users that play advanced and humble newbies should be distinguishable, so that the first can orient the second with some authority. The stack overflow system is very fair for that matter. Once again I don't know if we're still talking mailing lists or something else, with this ideas. So maybe the question is : what kind of knowledge sharing system is the most appropriate for our purpose. Forums ? mailing lists ? Q&A, StackOverflow-style ? Collaborative wiki ? A stack of all these ? A complex mix of all these ?


There are a ton of resources out there for Java people. There is Stack Overflow, Daniel Spiewak's blogs, Tony's exercises, videos, slides. You name it. There's even the whole 1st edition of PiS for free. I'm not saying that sometimes this community can't be a little intimidating but we should sometimes pause and ask ourselves whether someone who runs off at the first sight of three colons (and I am not talking about the Human Centipede) might just *not* be the type of person who is going to get into scala, regardless of what steps are taken to accommodate them.

Agreed. I don't think the lists should be elitist, but neither do I think that we should give away healthy habits and healthy speeches about complex concepts for popularity. A good-willing, smart list user is able to make the difference between advanced and (currently) affordable topics. I still consider myself as a noob, but I take pleasure to read some topics just for the sake of pushing my knowledge further. My point is, you should welcome users, but you shouldn't change what/who the community is made of, not just for the sake of community growth.


Chris

> To: scala-user [at] googlegroups [dot] com
> From: PhiLho [at] GMX [dot] net
> Subject: [scala-user] Re: The Scala community
> Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 15:55:36 +0200
>
> On 06/10/2011 11:30, Tim Pigden wrote:
> > I don't know whether it would work, but what about splitting the list
> > - maybe "scala-advanced" and "scala-help" or something like that? It
> > might work as long as a few of you (helpful) experts out there were
> > prepared to hang around in the scala-help list
>
> I tend to see scala-users as scala-help, and scala-language as scala-advanced.
> From the site [1]:
>
> scala-language: The main forum for discussions and news about the Scala language. (OK,
> that's quite generic, but a bit on the theoretical side.)
>
> scala-users: The main forum for questions and discussions about the Scala programming. In
> particular, the following should go to this list:
> newbie questions.
> programming experiences and questions.
>
> [1] http://www.scala-lang.org/node/199
>
> --
> Philippe Lhoste
> -- (near) Paris -- France
> -- http://Phi.Lho.free.fr
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
>



--
Alex REPAIN
ENSEIRB-MATMECA - student
TECHNICOLOR R&D - intern
BORDEAUX I      - master's student
SCALA           - enthusiast


RE: Re: The Scala community

Added by Chris Marshall on 2011-10-06, 15:37
I also suggest an official Scala "I have felt the back of Tony Morris' hand" T-shirt. It would be a revenue raiser, if nothing else.
Chris

From: oxbow_lakes [at] hotmail [dot] com
To: philho [at] gmx [dot] net; scala-user [at] googlegroups [dot] com
Subject: RE: [scala-user] Re: The Scala community
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 14:12:58 +0000

.ExternalClass .ecxhmmessage P {padding:0px;} .ExternalClass body.ecxhmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;} My understanding was that scala-language is essentially for scala committers.
If we add scala-advanced and scala-beginner, this is what will probably happen (it certainly did on the old Java forums).
 - 25% of newbies ask questions on scala-advanced, for no readily apparent reason. This results in sharp responses - 5% of newbies cross-post questions to both scala-advanced and scala-beginner. This also results in sharp responses - 70% of newbies ask question on scala-beginner. They get no answers, or inaccurate answers because the only people watching the deluge of omg-this-was-asked-last-week-rofl questions are other newbies. They then re-post on scala-advanced, resulting in sharp responses
There are a ton of resources out there for Java people. There is Stack Overflow, Daniel Spiewak's blogs, Tony's exercises, videos, slides. You name it. There's even the whole 1st edition of PiS for free. I'm not saying that sometimes this community can't be a little intimidating but we should sometimes pause and ask ourselves whether someone who runs off at the first sight of three colons (and I am not talking about the Human Centipede) might just *not* be the type of person who is going to get into scala, regardless of what steps are taken to accommodate them.
Chris

> To: scala-user [at] googlegroups [dot] com
> From: PhiLho [at] GMX [dot] net
> Subject: [scala-user] Re: The Scala community
> Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 15:55:36 +0200
>
> On 06/10/2011 11:30, Tim Pigden wrote:
> > I don't know whether it would work, but what about splitting the list
> > - maybe "scala-advanced" and "scala-help" or something like that? It
> > might work as long as a few of you (helpful) experts out there were
> > prepared to hang around in the scala-help list
>
> I tend to see scala-users as scala-help, and scala-language as scala-advanced.
> From the site [1]:
>
> scala-language: The main forum for discussions and news about the Scala language. (OK,
> that's quite generic, but a bit on the theoretical side.)
>
> scala-users: The main forum for questions and discussions about the Scala programming. In
> particular, the following should go to this list:
> newbie questions.
> programming experiences and questions.
>
> [1] http://www.scala-lang.org/node/199
>
> --
> Philippe Lhoste
> -- (near) Paris -- France
> -- http://Phi.Lho.free.fr
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
>

Re: Re: The Scala community

Added by hohonuuli on 2011-10-06, 17:27

On Thursday, October 6, 2011 at 7:15 AM, Chris Marshall wrote:
> I also suggest an official Scala "I have felt the back of Tony Morris' hand" T-shirt. It would be a revenue raiser, if nothing else.
That's a brilliant suggestion. Done. See http://www.zazzle.com/i_have_felt_the_back_of_tony_morris_hand_tshirt-23...

The back of the shirt is the scalaz page on GitHub. If anyone actually buys one, I'll donate the proceeds to a local non-profit at http://www.spectordance.org/

Cheers

Re: Re: The Scala community

Added by Alex Repain on 2011-10-06, 18:27
2011/10/6 Brian Schlining <bschlining [at] gmail [dot] com>
On Thursday, October 6, 2011 at 7:15 AM, Chris Marshall wrote:
>  I also suggest an official Scala "I have felt the back of Tony Morris' hand" T-shirt. It would be a revenue raiser, if nothing else.
That's a brilliant suggestion. Done. See http://www.zazzle.com/i_have_felt_the_back_of_tony_morris_hand_tshirt-235612893044049936


If you sell even one , you may have to pull up a new design : "I have felt the back of Tony Morris' lawyers' hand" :)

About forums, I pointed out some advantages of the forum model, but there is one sad point which seems concerning to me. A forum can easily get out of control without a moderation-dedicated staff, which means time-consuming work for the typeSafe, scala-lang guys, or whoever puts it up. We're talking about a computer language forum, not the kind of forum where I used to moderate 13-year-old brats, we may be able to self-moderate. Still pointing this out.

A "real online place" where to concentrate scala discussions is likely to strengthen the community, and provides great organisational tools, but like mentioned above, beware of group think.

Despite those points, I think a forum and the easy categorization that it can provide is likely to improve the way we welcome users, the way we offer them more accurate, more targetted answers.
 
The back of the shirt is the scalaz page on GitHub. If anyone actually buys one, I'll donate the proceeds to a local non-profit at http://www.spectordance.org/

Cheers

--
Brian Schlining


Re: Re: The Scala community

Added by Brian Clapper 2 on 2011-10-06, 19:07

On 10/06/2011 01:25 PM, Alex Repain wrote:
> 2011/10/6 Brian Schlining >
>
> On Thursday, October 6, 2011 at 7:15 AM, Chris Marshall wrote:
> > I also suggest an official Scala "I have felt the back of Tony Morris'
> hand" T-shirt. It would be a revenue raiser, if nothing else.
> That's a brilliant suggestion. Done. See
> http://www.zazzle.com/i_have_felt_the_back_of_tony_morris_hand_tshirt-23...
>
>
> If you sell even one , you may have to pull up a new design : "I have felt the
> back of Tony Morris' lawyers' hand" :)

How is this any better than the behavior of which Tony is being accused? More
to the point, if Tony's views are "damaging to the community" (which I've
witnessed a few people write, though I don't especially buy), how is a T-shirt
like this, advertised on this mailing list, any less "damaging"?

Seriously, I get that it's funny. I've done (and do) that kind of thing
myself, but mailing it to the list? Really?

I don't see how that's especially constructive.

Re: Re: The Scala community

Added by Jefferson Andrade on 2011-10-06, 15:37
Hi.

I personally know people that have left the list, and the will to use the language because of sharp answers (that was not even directed to them).

"They are lame or weak!" You may say. And this is nice and good, as long as we just want this to be our small closed little club of fraking-awesome-uber-smart people that can program in scala and "few the back of Tony Morris' hand" and smile (a little too much S&M for my taste, but I'm not judging). But, if we want scala to become more main stream and to succeed, it is just the wrong road to take.

Jeff.



On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 11:15 AM, Chris Marshall <oxbow_lakes [at] hotmail [dot] com> wrote:
I also suggest an official Scala "I have felt the back of Tony Morris' hand" T-shirt. It would be a revenue raiser, if nothing else.
Chris

From: oxbow_lakes [at] hotmail [dot] com
To: philho [at] gmx [dot] net; scala-user [at] googlegroups [dot] com
Subject: RE: [scala-user] Re: The Scala community
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 14:12:58 +0000

My understanding was that scala-language is essentially for scala committers.
If we add scala-advanced and scala-beginner, this is what will probably happen (it certainly did on the old Java forums).
 - 25% of newbies ask questions on scala-advanced, for no readily apparent reason. This results in sharp responses - 5% of newbies cross-post questions to both scala-advanced and scala-beginner. This also results in sharp responses  - 70% of newbies ask question on scala-beginner. They get no answers, or inaccurate answers because the only people watching the deluge of omg-this-was-asked-last-week-rofl questions are other newbies. They then re-post on scala-advanced, resulting in sharp responses
There are a ton of resources out there for Java people. There is Stack Overflow, Daniel Spiewak's blogs, Tony's exercises, videos, slides. You name it. There's even the whole 1st edition of PiS for free. I'm not saying that sometimes this community can't be a little intimidating but we should sometimes pause and ask ourselves whether someone who runs off at the first sight of three colons (and I am not talking about the Human Centipede) might just *not* be the type of person who is going to get into scala, regardless of what steps are taken to accommodate them.
Chris

> To: scala-user [at] googlegroups [dot] com
> From: PhiLho [at] GMX [dot] net
> Subject: [scala-user] Re: The Scala community
> Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 15:55:36 +0200
>
> On 06/10/2011 11:30, Tim Pigden wrote:
> > I don't know whether it would work, but what about splitting the list
> > - maybe "scala-advanced" and "scala-help" or something like that? It
> > might work as long as a few of you (helpful) experts out there were
> > prepared to hang around in the scala-help list
>
> I tend to see scala-users as scala-help, and scala-language as scala-advanced.
> From the site [1]:
>
> scala-language: The main forum for discussions and news about the Scala language. (OK,
> that's quite generic, but a bit on the theoretical side.)
>
> scala-users: The main forum for questions and discussions about the Scala programming. In
> particular, the following should go to this list:
> newbie questions.
> programming experiences and questions.
>
> [1] http://www.scala-lang.org/node/199
>
> --
> Philippe Lhoste
> -- (near) Paris -- France
> -- http://Phi.Lho.free.fr
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
>



--
"You question the worthiness of my Code? I should kill you where you stand!"

Re: Re: The Scala community

Added by Maxime Lévesque on 2011-10-06, 16:07

The world righ now runs on code that is far worst than what theorem hugging purists on this list
will brush off as an intellectual insult. ... But it still runs !
Don't get me wrong, I think that sound theory is a very
useful and practical thing, but when a newbe comes to this list, he very likely has a job to get done, and
will likely have some reluctant colleagues or boss to convince, to try something new,
the best way to turn him off is with sharp condescendant responses.


There is a phenomenom called group think :  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink
Sometimes I sense it in this community


ML

2011/10/6 Jefferson Andrade <joandrade [at] gmail [dot] com>
Hi.

I personally know people that have left the list, and the will to use the language because of sharp answers (that was not even directed to them).

"They are lame or weak!" You may say. And this is nice and good, as long as we just want this to be our small closed little club of fraking-awesome-uber-smart people that can program in scala and "few the back of Tony Morris' hand" and smile (a little too much S&M for my taste, but I'm not judging). But, if we want scala to become more main stream and to succeed, it is just the wrong road to take.

Jeff.



On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 11:15 AM, Chris Marshall <oxbow_lakes [at] hotmail [dot] com> wrote:
I also suggest an official Scala "I have felt the back of Tony Morris' hand" T-shirt. It would be a revenue raiser, if nothing else.
Chris

From: oxbow_lakes [at] hotmail [dot] com
To: philho [at] gmx [dot] net; scala-user [at] googlegroups [dot] com
Subject: RE: [scala-user] Re: The Scala community
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 14:12:58 +0000

My understanding was that scala-language is essentially for scala committers.
If we add scala-advanced and scala-beginner, this is what will probably happen (it certainly did on the old Java forums).
 - 25% of newbies ask questions on scala-advanced, for no readily apparent reason. This results in sharp responses - 5% of newbies cross-post questions to both scala-advanced and scala-beginner. This also results in sharp responses  - 70% of newbies ask question on scala-beginner. They get no answers, or inaccurate answers because the only people watching the deluge of omg-this-was-asked-last-week-rofl questions are other newbies. They then re-post on scala-advanced, resulting in sharp responses
There are a ton of resources out there for Java people. There is Stack Overflow, Daniel Spiewak's blogs, Tony's exercises, videos, slides. You name it. There's even the whole 1st edition of PiS for free. I'm not saying that sometimes this community can't be a little intimidating but we should sometimes pause and ask ourselves whether someone who runs off at the first sight of three colons (and I am not talking about the Human Centipede) might just *not* be the type of person who is going to get into scala, regardless of what steps are taken to accommodate them.
Chris

> To: scala-user [at] googlegroups [dot] com
> From: PhiLho [at] GMX [dot] net
> Subject: [scala-user] Re: The Scala community
> Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 15:55:36 +0200
>
> On 06/10/2011 11:30, Tim Pigden wrote:
> > I don't know whether it would work, but what about splitting the list
> > - maybe "scala-advanced" and "scala-help" or something like that? It
> > might work as long as a few of you (helpful) experts out there were
> > prepared to hang around in the scala-help list
>
> I tend to see scala-users as scala-help, and scala-language as scala-advanced.
> From the site [1]:
>
> scala-language: The main forum for discussions and news about the Scala language. (OK,
> that's quite generic, but a bit on the theoretical side.)
>
> scala-users: The main forum for questions and discussions about the Scala programming. In
> particular, the following should go to this list:
> newbie questions.
> programming experiences and questions.
>
> [1] http://www.scala-lang.org/node/199
>
> --
> Philippe Lhoste
> -- (near) Paris -- France
> -- http://Phi.Lho.free.fr
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
>



--
"You question the worthiness of my Code? I should kill you where you stand!"


Re: Re: The Scala community

Added by Alex Repain on 2011-10-06, 16:27


2011/10/6 Maxime Lévesque <maxime [dot] levesque [at] gmail [dot] com>

The world righ now runs on code that is far worst than what theorem hugging purists on this list
will brush off as an intellectual insult. ... But it still runs !
Don't get me wrong, I think that sound theory is a very
useful and practical thing, but when a newbe comes to this list, he very likely has a job to get done, and
will likely have some reluctant colleagues or boss to convince, to try something new,
the best way to turn him off is with sharp condescendant responses.


There is a phenomenom called group think :  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink
Sometimes I sense it in this community

It's a very common dilemma. If you feel attached to a group, you may ideally want it to be recognized, but feel the intrusion of numerous new members as a perversion of the original spirit :). Decisions will be centered on the group's survival as it currently is, to avoid loss of interest and melancholia. Sometimes called "the Underground effect". People who you may accept are only people in whom you sense the group's spirit (here, knowledge) already.

Frankly, I think the lists are quite far from that.


ML

2011/10/6 Jefferson Andrade <joandrade [at] gmail [dot] com>
Hi.

I personally know people that have left the list, and the will to use the language because of sharp answers (that was not even directed to them).

"They are lame or weak!" You may say. And this is nice and good, as long as we just want this to be our small closed little club of fraking-awesome-uber-smart people that can program in scala and "few the back of Tony Morris' hand" and smile (a little too much S&M for my taste, but I'm not judging). But, if we want scala to become more main stream and to succeed, it is just the wrong road to take.

Jeff.



On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 11:15 AM, Chris Marshall <oxbow_lakes [at] hotmail [dot] com> wrote:
I also suggest an official Scala "I have felt the back of Tony Morris' hand" T-shirt. It would be a revenue raiser, if nothing else.
Chris

From: oxbow_lakes [at] hotmail [dot] com
To: philho [at] gmx [dot] net; scala-user [at] googlegroups [dot] com
Subject: RE: [scala-user] Re: The Scala community
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 14:12:58 +0000

My understanding was that scala-language is essentially for scala committers.
If we add scala-advanced and scala-beginner, this is what will probably happen (it certainly did on the old Java forums).
 - 25% of newbies ask questions on scala-advanced, for no readily apparent reason. This results in sharp responses - 5% of newbies cross-post questions to both scala-advanced and scala-beginner. This also results in sharp responses  - 70% of newbies ask question on scala-beginner. They get no answers, or inaccurate answers because the only people watching the deluge of omg-this-was-asked-last-week-rofl questions are other newbies. They then re-post on scala-advanced, resulting in sharp responses
There are a ton of resources out there for Java people. There is Stack Overflow, Daniel Spiewak's blogs, Tony's exercises, videos, slides. You name it. There's even the whole 1st edition of PiS for free. I'm not saying that sometimes this community can't be a little intimidating but we should sometimes pause and ask ourselves whether someone who runs off at the first sight of three colons (and I am not talking about the Human Centipede) might just *not* be the type of person who is going to get into scala, regardless of what steps are taken to accommodate them.
Chris

> To: scala-user [at] googlegroups [dot] com
> From: PhiLho [at] GMX [dot] net
> Subject: [scala-user] Re: The Scala community
> Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 15:55:36 +0200
>
> On 06/10/2011 11:30, Tim Pigden wrote:
> > I don't know whether it would work, but what about splitting the list
> > - maybe "scala-advanced" and "scala-help" or something like that? It
> > might work as long as a few of you (helpful) experts out there were
> > prepared to hang around in the scala-help list
>
> I tend to see scala-users as scala-help, and scala-language as scala-advanced.
> From the site [1]:
>
> scala-language: The main forum for discussions and news about the Scala language. (OK,
> that's quite generic, but a bit on the theoretical side.)
>
> scala-users: The main forum for questions and discussions about the Scala programming. In
> particular, the following should go to this list:
> newbie questions.
> programming experiences and questions.
>
> [1] http://www.scala-lang.org/node/199
>
> --
> Philippe Lhoste
> -- (near) Paris -- France
> -- http://Phi.Lho.free.fr
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
>



--
"You question the worthiness of my Code? I should kill you where you stand!"





--
Alex REPAIN
ENSEIRB-MATMECA - student
TECHNICOLOR R&D - intern
BORDEAUX I      - master's student
SCALA           - enthusiast


Re: Re: The Scala community

Added by Maxime Lévesque on 2011-10-06, 16:37

Ok, you might have noriced that I like to exagerate ;-) 

What I meant was more like : lets not get into group think, and lets welcome external criticism and not dismiss it to quickly...

ML

2011/10/6 Alex Repain <alex [dot] repain [at] gmail [dot] com>


2011/10/6 Maxime Lévesque <maxime [dot] levesque [at] gmail [dot] com>

The world righ now runs on code that is far worst than what theorem hugging purists on this list
will brush off as an intellectual insult. ... But it still runs !
Don't get me wrong, I think that sound theory is a very
useful and practical thing, but when a newbe comes to this list, he very likely has a job to get done, and
will likely have some reluctant colleagues or boss to convince, to try something new,
the best way to turn him off is with sharp condescendant responses.


There is a phenomenom called group think :  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink
Sometimes I sense it in this community

It's a very common dilemma. If you feel attached to a group, you may ideally want it to be recognized, but feel the intrusion of numerous new members as a perversion of the original spirit :). Decisions will be centered on the group's survival as it currently is, to avoid loss of interest and melancholia. Sometimes called "the Underground effect". People who you may accept are only people in whom you sense the group's spirit (here, knowledge) already.

Frankly, I think the lists are quite far from that.


ML

2011/10/6 Jefferson Andrade <joandrade [at] gmail [dot] com>
Hi.

I personally know people that have left the list, and the will to use the language because of sharp answers (that was not even directed to them).

"They are lame or weak!" You may say. And this is nice and good, as long as we just want this to be our small closed little club of fraking-awesome-uber-smart people that can program in scala and "few the back of Tony Morris' hand" and smile (a little too much S&M for my taste, but I'm not judging). But, if we want scala to become more main stream and to succeed, it is just the wrong road to take.

Jeff.



On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 11:15 AM, Chris Marshall <oxbow_lakes [at] hotmail [dot] com> wrote:
I also suggest an official Scala "I have felt the back of Tony Morris' hand" T-shirt. It would be a revenue raiser, if nothing else.
Chris

From: oxbow_lakes [at] hotmail [dot] com
To: philho [at] gmx [dot] net; scala-user [at] googlegroups [dot] com
Subject: RE: [scala-user] Re: The Scala community
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 14:12:58 +0000

My understanding was that scala-language is essentially for scala committers.
If we add scala-advanced and scala-beginner, this is what will probably happen (it certainly did on the old Java forums).
 - 25% of newbies ask questions on scala-advanced, for no readily apparent reason. This results in sharp responses - 5% of newbies cross-post questions to both scala-advanced and scala-beginner. This also results in sharp responses  - 70% of newbies ask question on scala-beginner. They get no answers, or inaccurate answers because the only people watching the deluge of omg-this-was-asked-last-week-rofl questions are other newbies. They then re-post on scala-advanced, resulting in sharp responses
There are a ton of resources out there for Java people. There is Stack Overflow, Daniel Spiewak's blogs, Tony's exercises, videos, slides. You name it. There's even the whole 1st edition of PiS for free. I'm not saying that sometimes this community can't be a little intimidating but we should sometimes pause and ask ourselves whether someone who runs off at the first sight of three colons (and I am not talking about the Human Centipede) might just *not* be the type of person who is going to get into scala, regardless of what steps are taken to accommodate them.
Chris

> To: scala-user [at] googlegroups [dot] com
> From: PhiLho [at] GMX [dot] net
> Subject: [scala-user] Re: The Scala community
> Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 15:55:36 +0200
>
> On 06/10/2011 11:30, Tim Pigden wrote:
> > I don't know whether it would work, but what about splitting the list
> > - maybe "scala-advanced" and "scala-help" or something like that? It
> > might work as long as a few of you (helpful) experts out there were
> > prepared to hang around in the scala-help list
>
> I tend to see scala-users as scala-help, and scala-language as scala-advanced.
> From the site [1]:
>
> scala-language: The main forum for discussions and news about the Scala language. (OK,
> that's quite generic, but a bit on the theoretical side.)
>
> scala-users: The main forum for questions and discussions about the Scala programming. In
> particular, the following should go to this list:
> newbie questions.
> programming experiences and questions.
>
> [1] http://www.scala-lang.org/node/199
>
> --
> Philippe Lhoste
> -- (near) Paris -- France
> -- http://Phi.Lho.free.fr
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
>



--
"You question the worthiness of my Code? I should kill you where you stand!"





--
Alex REPAIN
ENSEIRB-MATMECA - student
TECHNICOLOR R&D - intern
BORDEAUX I      - master's student
SCALA           - enthusiast



Re: Re: The Scala community

Added by Tim P on 2011-10-06, 16:37

Thinking about format - I reckon forums work better than google groups
in this respect because you can have sticky stuff so newbies will
always see the resource list, the faq list, the instructions (please
use this list only for ...). Maybe this also works in google groups
but it's not particularly obvious. Is there a particular advantage in
google groups?

Re: Re: The Scala community

Added by Cay Horstmann on 2011-10-06, 17:07
I too would favor the move to a forum, but that may take some time. A scala-advanced list can be done quickly.

2011/10/6 Tim Pigden <tim [dot] pigden [at] optrak [dot] com>
Thinking about format - I reckon forums work better than google groups
in this respect because you can have sticky stuff so newbies will
always see the resource list, the faq list, the instructions (please
use this list only for ...). Maybe this also works in google groups
but it's not particularly obvious. Is there a particular advantage in
google groups?

Re: Re: The Scala community

Added by Russel Winder 2 on 2011-10-06, 17:07

The forum vs. email issue intrudes here. There are people who like
forums and hate email lists and others who hate forums and demand use of
email lists. A good community requires a system that satisfies both
varieties of people.

On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 08:47 -0700, Cay Horstmann wrote:
> I too would favor the move to a forum, but that may take some time. A
> scala-advanced list can be done quickly.
>
> 2011/10/6 Tim Pigden
> Thinking about format - I reckon forums work better than
> google groups
> in this respect because you can have sticky stuff so newbies
> will
> always see the resource list, the faq list, the instructions
> (please
> use this list only for ...). Maybe this also works in google
> groups
> but it's not particularly obvious. Is there a particular
> advantage in
> google groups?
>

Re: Re: The Scala community

Added by bmjsmith on 2011-10-06, 20:37
For those who prefer forums, what's lacking with the google groups forum view?
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/scala-user
On 6 October 2011 17:00, Russel Winder <russel [at] russel [dot] org [dot] uk> wrote:
The forum vs. email issue intrudes here.  There are people who like
forums and hate email lists and others who hate forums and demand use of
email lists.  A good community requires a system that satisfies both
varieties of people.

On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 08:47 -0700, Cay Horstmann wrote:
> I too would favor the move to a forum, but that may take some time. A
> scala-advanced list can be done quickly.
>
> 2011/10/6 Tim Pigden <tim [dot] pigden [at] optrak [dot] com>
>         Thinking about format - I reckon forums work better than
>         google groups
>         in this respect because you can have sticky stuff so newbies
>         will
>         always see the resource list, the faq list, the instructions
>         (please
>         use this list only for ...). Maybe this also works in google
>         groups
>         but it's not particularly obvious. Is there a particular
>         advantage in
>         google groups?
>

--
Russel.
=============================================================================
Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: 3Arussel [dot] winder [at] ekiga [dot] net" rel="nofollow">sip:russel [dot] winder [at] ekiga [dot] net
41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: russel [at] russel [dot] org [dot] uk
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder

Re: Re: The Scala community

Added by Bill Venners on 2011-10-06, 21:17

Hi All,

New users come here to scala-users by and large, so I would vote for
creating a scala-advanced list and then encouraging the kinds of
"higher kinded" discussions that intimidate new users off of this list
and onto scala-advanced. It shouldn't offend anyone to ask them to
move something to an "advanced" list. Asking someone to move something
to debate doesn't feel the same. scala-debate to me feels like the
place to ship heated arguments that have gone on too long. Most of the
high end topics that get discussed here aren't heated debates, they
are just unhelpful (and to some extent discouraging) topics for new
users. They are important and useful for more advanced Scala folks,
who I don't think would at all mind joining a list called
scala-advanced.

Bill

On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 12:32 PM, Brian Smith wrote:
> For those who prefer forums, what's lacking with the google groups forum
> view?
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/scala-user
> On 6 October 2011 17:00, Russel Winder wrote:
>>
>> The forum vs. email issue intrudes here.  There are people who like
>> forums and hate email lists and others who hate forums and demand use of
>> email lists.  A good community requires a system that satisfies both
>> varieties of people.
>>
>> On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 08:47 -0700, Cay Horstmann wrote:
>> > I too would favor the move to a forum, but that may take some time. A
>> > scala-advanced list can be done quickly.
>> >
>> > 2011/10/6 Tim Pigden
>> >         Thinking about format - I reckon forums work better than
>> >         google groups
>> >         in this respect because you can have sticky stuff so newbies
>> >         will
>> >         always see the resource list, the faq list, the instructions
>> >         (please
>> >         use this list only for ...). Maybe this also works in google
>> >         groups
>> >         but it's not particularly obvious. Is there a particular
>> >         advantage in
>> >         google groups?
>> >
>>
>> --
>> Russel.
>>
>> =============================================================================
>> Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip:
>> sip:russel [dot] winder [at] ekiga [dot] net
>> 41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: russel [at] russel [dot] org [dot] uk
>> London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder
>
>

Re: Re: The Scala community

Added by Tom Switzer on 2011-10-06, 22:07
I'm going to disagree. I really don't like the idea of separating scala-user out into 2 groups (beginner/advanced).
First, I think scala-user just doesn't get the traffic to justify a split. I can spend 5 minute breaks here and there throughout the day reading this list and have no problem keeping caught up.
I also think the idea of "beginner" questions is incredibly vague. I've learned a lot from the answers to rather simple questions on this list. A split would also mean that an otherwise smart and possibly helpful user may not see a question they can answer because they only subscribed to scala-advanced. And on the flip-side, the amount of traffic to scala-advanced may be so small that most folks just ignore it.
As a long time user of mailing lists, I can usually gauge pretty well how "advanced" the question is by its subject. Even then, I think most people (myself included) would not be "scared" off a list because people were talking about advanced things; on the contrary, it may inspire more learning.
Unless scala-user has a sudden surge in traffic, I think we can safely keep it as is.
On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 4:09 PM, Bill Venners <bill [at] artima [dot] com> wrote:
Hi All,

New users come here to scala-users by and large, so I would vote for
creating a scala-advanced list and then encouraging the kinds of
"higher kinded" discussions that intimidate new users off of this list
and onto scala-advanced. It shouldn't offend anyone to ask them to
move something to an "advanced" list. Asking someone to move something
to debate doesn't feel the same. scala-debate to me feels like the
place to ship heated arguments that have gone on too long. Most of the
high end topics that get discussed here aren't heated debates, they
are just unhelpful (and to some extent discouraging) topics for new
users. They are important and useful for more advanced Scala folks,
who I don't think would at all mind joining a list called
scala-advanced.

Bill

On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 12:32 PM, Brian Smith <bmjsmith [at] gmail [dot] com> wrote:
> For those who prefer forums, what's lacking with the google groups forum
> view?
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/scala-user
> On 6 October 2011 17:00, Russel Winder <russel [at] russel [dot] org [dot] uk> wrote:
>>
>> The forum vs. email issue intrudes here.  There are people who like
>> forums and hate email lists and others who hate forums and demand use of
>> email lists.  A good community requires a system that satisfies both
>> varieties of people.
>>
>> On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 08:47 -0700, Cay Horstmann wrote:
>> > I too would favor the move to a forum, but that may take some time. A
>> > scala-advanced list can be done quickly.
>> >
>> > 2011/10/6 Tim Pigden <tim [dot] pigden [at] optrak [dot] com>
>> >         Thinking about format - I reckon forums work better than
>> >         google groups
>> >         in this respect because you can have sticky stuff so newbies
>> >         will
>> >         always see the resource list, the faq list, the instructions
>> >         (please
>> >         use this list only for ...). Maybe this also works in google
>> >         groups
>> >         but it's not particularly obvious. Is there a particular
>> >         advantage in
>> >         google groups?
>> >
>>
>> --
>> Russel.
>>
>> =============================================================================
>> Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip:
>> 3Arussel [dot] winder [at] ekiga [dot] net" rel="nofollow">sip:russel [dot] winder [at] ekiga [dot] net
>> 41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: russel [at] russel [dot] org [dot] uk
>> London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder
>
>



--
Bill Venners
Artima, Inc.
http://www.artima.com

Re: Re: The Scala community

Added by Bill Venners on 2011-10-06, 22:57

Hi Tom,

On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 1:49 PM, Tom Switzer wrote:
> I'm going to disagree. I really don't like the idea of separating scala-user
> out into 2 groups (beginner/advanced).
>
Actually I don't think its as much a beginner/advanced split as a
user/advanced. Advanced would just be a home for esoteric topics (the
kind that make Scala look hard to outsiders), user for everything
else. And this would be done for helping facilitate Scala adoption. If
you like the high end kind of discussion too could you not just join
both lists?

We did already try this splitting-the-list concept with scala-debate,
though, and it didn't really work. I'm wondering if it is because
there's a difference between "debate" and "advanced." Sending someone
to debate is like saying, "would you guys please stop beating this
dead horse and get out of my bandwidth?" Asking someone to move over
to debate feels kind of rude. Whereas pointing a discussion to
advanced might feel more like a compliment. It may be that list
splitting just doesn't work, but if a scala-advanced list were created
I'd certainly join it.

Bill

> First, I think scala-user just doesn't get the traffic to justify a split. I
> can spend 5 minute breaks here and there throughout the day reading this
> list and have no problem keeping caught up.
> I also think the idea of "beginner" questions is incredibly vague. I've
> learned a lot from the answers to rather simple questions on this list. A
> split would also mean that an otherwise smart and possibly helpful user may
> not see a question they can answer because they only subscribed to
> scala-advanced. And on the flip-side, the amount of traffic to
> scala-advanced may be so small that most folks just ignore it.
> As a long time user of mailing lists, I can usually gauge pretty well how
> "advanced" the question is by its subject. Even then, I think most people
> (myself included) would not be "scared" off a list because people were
> talking about advanced things; on the contrary, it may inspire more
> learning.
> Unless scala-user has a sudden surge in traffic, I think we can safely keep
> it as is.
> On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 4:09 PM, Bill Venners wrote:
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> New users come here to scala-users by and large, so I would vote for
>> creating a scala-advanced list and then encouraging the kinds of
>> "higher kinded" discussions that intimidate new users off of this list
>> and onto scala-advanced. It shouldn't offend anyone to ask them to
>> move something to an "advanced" list. Asking someone to move something
>> to debate doesn't feel the same. scala-debate to me feels like the
>> place to ship heated arguments that have gone on too long. Most of the
>> high end topics that get discussed here aren't heated debates, they
>> are just unhelpful (and to some extent discouraging) topics for new
>> users. They are important and useful for more advanced Scala folks,
>> who I don't think would at all mind joining a list called
>> scala-advanced.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 12:32 PM, Brian Smith wrote:
>> > For those who prefer forums, what's lacking with the google groups forum
>> > view?
>> > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/scala-user
>> > On 6 October 2011 17:00, Russel Winder wrote:
>> >>
>> >> The forum vs. email issue intrudes here.  There are people who like
>> >> forums and hate email lists and others who hate forums and demand use
>> >> of
>> >> email lists.  A good community requires a system that satisfies both
>> >> varieties of people.
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 08:47 -0700, Cay Horstmann wrote:
>> >> > I too would favor the move to a forum, but that may take some time. A
>> >> > scala-advanced list can be done quickly.
>> >> >
>> >> > 2011/10/6 Tim Pigden
>> >> >         Thinking about format - I reckon forums work better than
>> >> >         google groups
>> >> >         in this respect because you can have sticky stuff so newbies
>> >> >         will
>> >> >         always see the resource list, the faq list, the instructions
>> >> >         (please
>> >> >         use this list only for ...). Maybe this also works in google
>> >> >         groups
>> >> >         but it's not particularly obvious. Is there a particular
>> >> >         advantage in
>> >> >         google groups?
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Russel.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> =============================================================================
>> >> Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip:
>> >> sip:russel [dot] winder [at] ekiga [dot] net
>> >> 41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: russel [at] russel [dot] org [dot] uk
>> >> London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Bill Venners
>> Artima, Inc.
>> http://www.artima.com
>
>

Re: Re: The Scala community

Added by Kevin Wright 2 on 2011-10-06, 23:17
My theory is that we're looking to split at the wrong end of the spectrum.
scala-internals and scala-debate are clearly for advanced topics and for people "working through" problems. Their names clearly disambiguate the sort of material you can expect to find there.
At the other hand, we have scala-language and scala-user. From the names alone, it's *not* clear which of these should be targeted at newcomers and which is more general-purpose.  Perhaps one of these two lists should be deprecated, and scala-basics introduced instead.
And yes, we should be directing folk towards StackOverflow whenever it makes sense to do so.  It's already proven itself time and time again as being a fantastic source of answers for the community, and seems to fill the hole that many are looking to fill with a forum.

On 6 October 2011 22:50, Bill Venners <bill [at] artima [dot] com> wrote:
Hi Tom,

On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 1:49 PM, Tom Switzer <thomas [dot] switzer [at] gmail [dot] com> wrote:
> I'm going to disagree. I really don't like the idea of separating scala-user
> out into 2 groups (beginner/advanced).
>
Actually I don't think its as much a beginner/advanced split as a
user/advanced. Advanced would just be a home for esoteric topics (the
kind that make Scala look hard to outsiders), user for everything
else. And this would be done for helping facilitate Scala adoption. If
you like the high end kind of discussion too could you not just join
both lists?

We did already try this splitting-the-list concept with scala-debate,
though, and it didn't really work. I'm wondering if it is because
there's a difference between "debate" and "advanced." Sending someone
to debate is like saying, "would you guys please stop beating this
dead horse and get out of my bandwidth?" Asking someone to move over
to debate feels kind of rude. Whereas pointing a discussion to
advanced might feel more like a compliment. It may be that list
splitting just doesn't work, but if a scala-advanced list were created
I'd certainly join it.

Bill

> First, I think scala-user just doesn't get the traffic to justify a split. I
> can spend 5 minute breaks here and there throughout the day reading this
> list and have no problem keeping caught up.
> I also think the idea of "beginner" questions is incredibly vague. I've
> learned a lot from the answers to rather simple questions on this list. A
> split would also mean that an otherwise smart and possibly helpful user may
> not see a question they can answer because they only subscribed to
> scala-advanced. And on the flip-side, the amount of traffic to
> scala-advanced may be so small that most folks just ignore it.
> As a long time user of mailing lists, I can usually gauge pretty well how
> "advanced" the question is by its subject. Even then, I think most people
> (myself included) would not be "scared" off a list because people were
> talking about advanced things; on the contrary, it may inspire more
> learning.
> Unless scala-user has a sudden surge in traffic, I think we can safely keep
> it as is.
> On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 4:09 PM, Bill Venners <bill [at] artima [dot] com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> New users come here to scala-users by and large, so I would vote for
>> creating a scala-advanced list and then encouraging the kinds of
>> "higher kinded" discussions that intimidate new users off of this list
>> and onto scala-advanced. It shouldn't offend anyone to ask them to
>> move something to an "advanced" list. Asking someone to move something
>> to debate doesn't feel the same. scala-debate to me feels like the
>> place to ship heated arguments that have gone on too long. Most of the
>> high end topics that get discussed here aren't heated debates, they
>> are just unhelpful (and to some extent discouraging) topics for new
>> users. They are important and useful for more advanced Scala folks,
>> who I don't think would at all mind joining a list called
>> scala-advanced.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 12:32 PM, Brian Smith <bmjsmith [at] gmail [dot] com> wrote:
>> > For those who prefer forums, what's lacking with the google groups forum
>> > view?
>> > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/scala-user
>> > On 6 October 2011 17:00, Russel Winder <russel [at] russel [dot] org [dot] uk> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> The forum vs. email issue intrudes here.  There are people who like
>> >> forums and hate email lists and others who hate forums and demand use
>> >> of
>> >> email lists.  A good community requires a system that satisfies both
>> >> varieties of people.
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 08:47 -0700, Cay Horstmann wrote:
>> >> > I too would favor the move to a forum, but that may take some time. A
>> >> > scala-advanced list can be done quickly.
>> >> >
>> >> > 2011/10/6 Tim Pigden <tim [dot] pigden [at] optrak [dot] com>
>> >> >         Thinking about format - I reckon forums work better than
>> >> >         google groups
>> >> >         in this respect because you can have sticky stuff so newbies
>> >> >         will
>> >> >         always see the resource list, the faq list, the instructions
>> >> >         (please
>> >> >         use this list only for ...). Maybe this also works in google
>> >> >         groups
>> >> >         but it's not particularly obvious. Is there a particular
>> >> >         advantage in
>> >> >         google groups?
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Russel.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> =============================================================================
>> >> Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip:
>> >> 3Arussel [dot] winder [at] ekiga [dot] net" rel="nofollow">sip:russel [dot] winder [at] ekiga [dot] net
>> >> 41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: russel [at] russel [dot] org [dot] uk
>> >> London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Bill Venners
>> Artima, Inc.
>> http://www.artima.com
>
>



--
Bill Venners
Artima, Inc.
http://www.artima.com


Re: Re: The Scala community

Added by Bill Venners on 2011-10-06, 23:37

Hi Kevin,

I always found the difference between scala-user and scala-language
confusing. I don't know if I ever posted to scala-language. I'd vote
for dropping that scala-language.

As for scala-basics versus scala-advanced, not sure, but I think it
doesn't feel reassuring to new users who are already coming to
scala-user to say "please go to scala-basics". If they took it there
to begin with that's fine, but to ask them to move sounds like an
insult. But asking someone who brings a category theory question to
scala-user it is not so rude to ask them to take it on scala-advanced.
Sounds more like a compliment. Another list that doesn't seem to get
used much honestly is scala-debate. Though if we create a basic or
advanced list we should probably keep debate around so we can go there
to discuss what should be on user versus the other one!

Bill

On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Kevin Wright wrote:
> My theory is that we're looking to split at the wrong end of the spectrum.
> scala-internals and scala-debate are clearly for advanced topics and for
> people "working through" problems. Their names clearly disambiguate the sort
> of material you can expect to find there.
> At the other hand, we have scala-language and scala-user. From the names
> alone, it's *not* clear which of these should be targeted at newcomers and
> which is more general-purpose.  Perhaps one of these two lists should be
> deprecated, and scala-basics introduced instead.
> And yes, we should be directing folk towards StackOverflow whenever it makes
> sense to do so.  It's already proven itself time and time again as being a
> fantastic source of answers for the community, and seems to fill the hole
> that many are looking to fill with a forum.
>
> On 6 October 2011 22:50, Bill Venners wrote:
>>
>> Hi Tom,
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 1:49 PM, Tom Switzer
>> wrote:
>> > I'm going to disagree. I really don't like the idea of separating
>> > scala-user
>> > out into 2 groups (beginner/advanced).
>> >
>> Actually I don't think its as much a beginner/advanced split as a
>> user/advanced. Advanced would just be a home for esoteric topics (the
>> kind that make Scala look hard to outsiders), user for everything
>> else. And this would be done for helping facilitate Scala adoption. If
>> you like the high end kind of discussion too could you not just join
>> both lists?
>>
>> We did already try this splitting-the-list concept with scala-debate,
>> though, and it didn't really work. I'm wondering if it is because
>> there's a difference between "debate" and "advanced." Sending someone
>> to debate is like saying, "would you guys please stop beating this
>> dead horse and get out of my bandwidth?" Asking someone to move over
>> to debate feels kind of rude. Whereas pointing a discussion to
>> advanced might feel more like a compliment. It may be that list
>> splitting just doesn't work, but if a scala-advanced list were created
>> I'd certainly join it.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> > First, I think scala-user just doesn't get the traffic to justify a
>> > split. I
>> > can spend 5 minute breaks here and there throughout the day reading this
>> > list and have no problem keeping caught up.
>> > I also think the idea of "beginner" questions is incredibly vague. I've
>> > learned a lot from the answers to rather simple questions on this list.
>> > A
>> > split would also mean that an otherwise smart and possibly helpful user
>> > may
>> > not see a question they can answer because they only subscribed to
>> > scala-advanced. And on the flip-side, the amount of traffic to
>> > scala-advanced may be so small that most folks just ignore it.
>> > As a long time user of mailing lists, I can usually gauge pretty well
>> > how
>> > "advanced" the question is by its subject. Even then, I think most
>> > people
>> > (myself included) would not be "scared" off a list because people were
>> > talking about advanced things; on the contrary, it may inspire more
>> > learning.
>> > Unless scala-user has a sudden surge in traffic, I think we can safely
>> > keep
>> > it as is.
>> > On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 4:09 PM, Bill Venners wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hi All,
>> >>
>> >> New users come here to scala-users by and large, so I would vote for
>> >> creating a scala-advanced list and then encouraging the kinds of
>> >> "higher kinded" discussions that intimidate new users off of this list
>> >> and onto scala-advanced. It shouldn't offend anyone to ask them to
>> >> move something to an "advanced" list. Asking someone to move something
>> >> to debate doesn't feel the same. scala-debate to me feels like the
>> >> place to ship heated arguments that have gone on too long. Most of the
>> >> high end topics that get discussed here aren't heated debates, they
>> >> are just unhelpful (and to some extent discouraging) topics for new
>> >> users. They are important and useful for more advanced Scala folks,
>> >> who I don't think would at all mind joining a list called
>> >> scala-advanced.
>> >>
>> >> Bill
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 12:32 PM, Brian Smith
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > For those who prefer forums, what's lacking with the google groups
>> >> > forum
>> >> > view?
>> >> > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/scala-user
>> >> > On 6 October 2011 17:00, Russel Winder wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The forum vs. email issue intrudes here.  There are people who like
>> >> >> forums and hate email lists and others who hate forums and demand
>> >> >> use
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> email lists.  A good community requires a system that satisfies both
>> >> >> varieties of people.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 08:47 -0700, Cay Horstmann wrote:
>> >> >> > I too would favor the move to a forum, but that may take some
>> >> >> > time. A
>> >> >> > scala-advanced list can be done quickly.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > 2011/10/6 Tim Pigden
>> >> >> >         Thinking about format - I reckon forums work better than
>> >> >> >         google groups
>> >> >> >         in this respect because you can have sticky stuff so
>> >> >> > newbies
>> >> >> >         will
>> >> >> >         always see the resource list, the faq list, the
>> >> >> > instructions
>> >> >> >         (please
>> >> >> >         use this list only for ...). Maybe this also works in
>> >> >> > google
>> >> >> >         groups
>> >> >> >         but it's not particularly obvious. Is there a particular
>> >> >> >         advantage in
>> >> >> >         google groups?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> Russel.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> =============================================================================
>> >> >> Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip:
>> >> >> sip:russel [dot] winder [at] ekiga [dot] net
>> >> >> 41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp:
>> >> >> russel [at] russel [dot] org [dot] uk
>> >> >> London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Bill Venners
>> >> Artima, Inc.
>> >> http://www.artima.com
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Bill Venners
>> Artima, Inc.
>> http://www.artima.com
>
>
>

Re: The Scala community

Added by hseeberger on 2011-10-07, 10:07
On Oct 7, 2011, at 12:18 AM, Bill Venners wrote:
I always found the difference between scala-user and scala-language
confusing. I don't know if I ever posted to scala-language. I'd vote
for dropping that scala-language.

+1
Heiko

Re: The Scala community

Added by DaveScala on 2011-10-07, 11:07

I post on scala-language questions about the language specification
(the why questions)
I post on scala-user the programming questions (the how questions)
I think that scala-debate is more a chitchat forum about programming
but not necessarily searching for a real solution.
Scala-tools is about the tools of Scala like IDE, text editors,
Scala.NET
And scala-internals is more compiler/parser internals so bytecode and
optimizations,compiler plugins and so on.

I think scala-xml can be dropped since it is not in use and it is
unnecessary to have a separate forum for a library package(there is no
scala-actor scala-swing forum either, this can be posted on scala-user
or scala-advanced)

I support a scala-advanced forum/mailinglist (for FP, (origami) design
patterns, data-generic programming, meta-programming), typical native
Scala solutions, solutions out of your comfort zone, then scala-user
can be exclusively used for newbie/stackoverflow-like questions and
programmers who are using Scala for its conciseness and expressiveness
and are (at the moment) not interested for solutions out of their
comfort zone.

Re: The Scala community

Added by Aydjen on 2011-10-07, 11:37

I really like the way the Haskell MLs are organized and named
(http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Mailing_lists) and thus propose "scala-announce"
for announcements, "scala-cafe" for all kinds of questions and discussions
(subsuming much of scala-user and possibly all of scala-debate),
"scala-beginners" for ... well... beginners. That is, IF the current ML layout
is under discussion at all.
 
Kind regards
Andreas 

Re: Re: The Scala community

Added by Simon Ochsenreither on 2011-10-06, 23:47
If we really want to different naming lists, then please name the “advanced” one in a way no beginner ever thinks about asking a question there, to reduce the amount of redirects between the lists.

Instead of “scala-advanced” I propose “scala-implicitkleislicomonad”

Imho this measure is simple and effective:When someone understands that the name is only a joke, he has already gained the knowledge level to ask a question there.

Re: Re: The Scala community

Added by Kevin Wright 2 on 2011-10-07, 00:07
Okay, I'll roll with that.  How about:
scala-from-java (formerly scala-user)scala-languagescala-theory (formerly scala-debate)scala-internals
That drops debate (which perhaps sounds a bit confrontational, making people less likely to redirect threads there), and user (which was always a bit uncertain as to whether it should be more or less "advanced" than lang)
Instead, we get names more closely aligned with the types of post expected.


On 6 October 2011 23:27, Simon Ochsenreither <simon [dot] ochsenreither [at] googlemail [dot] com> wrote:
If we really want to different naming lists, then please name the “advanced” one in a way no beginner ever thinks about asking a question there, to reduce the amount of redirects between the lists.

Instead of “scala-advanced” I propose “scala-implicitkleislicomonad”

Imho this measure is simple and effective:When someone understands that the name is only a joke, he has already gained the knowledge level to ask a question there.



--
Kevin Wright
mail: kevin [dot] wright [at] scalatechnology [dot] com
gtalk / msn : kev [dot] lee [dot] wright [at] gmail [dot] com quora: http://www.quora.com/Kevin-Wrightgoogle+: http://gplus.to/thecoda
kev [dot] lee [dot] wright [at] gmail [dot] com twitter: @thecoda
vibe / skype: kev.lee.wrightsteam: kev_lee_wright
"My point today is that, if we wish to count lines of code, we should not regard them as "lines produced" but as "lines spent": the current conventional wisdom is so foolish as to book that count on the wrong side of the ledger" ~ Dijkstra

Re: Re: The Scala community

Added by tolsen77 on 2011-10-07, 16:17
I like scala-theory. Here is my forked modifications.

scala-debate
scala-answers (formerly scala-user)
scala-theory (formerly scala-lang)
scala-internals
scala-rejects (formerly scala-xml)


On 7 October 2011 00:49, Kevin Wright <kev [dot] lee [dot] wright [at] gmail [dot] com> wrote:
Okay, I'll roll with that.  How about:
scala-from-java (formerly scala-user)scala-languagescala-theory (formerly scala-debate)scala-internals
That drops debate (which perhaps sounds a bit confrontational, making people less likely to redirect threads there), and user (which was always a bit uncertain as to whether it should be more or less "advanced" than lang)
Instead, we get names more closely aligned with the types of post expected.


On 6 October 2011 23:27, Simon Ochsenreither <simon [dot] ochsenreither [at] googlemail [dot] com> wrote:
If we really want to different naming lists, then please name the “advanced” one in a way no beginner ever thinks about asking a question there, to reduce the amount of redirects between the lists.

Instead of “scala-advanced” I propose “scala-implicitkleislicomonad”

Imho this measure is simple and effective:When someone understands that the name is only a joke, he has already gained the knowledge level to ask a question there.



--
Kevin Wright
mail: kevin [dot] wright [at] scalatechnology [dot] com
gtalk / msn : kev [dot] lee [dot] wright [at] gmail [dot] com quora: http://www.quora.com/Kevin-Wrightgoogle+: http://gplus.to/thecoda
kev [dot] lee [dot] wright [at] gmail [dot] com twitter: @thecoda
vibe / skype: kev.lee.wrightsteam: kev_lee_wright
"My point today is that, if we wish to count lines of code, we should not regard them as "lines produced" but as "lines spent": the current conventional wisdom is so foolish as to book that count on the wrong side of the ledger" ~ Dijkstra

Re: Re: The Scala community

Added by Kevin Wright 2 on 2011-10-07, 16:47
<irony>
How about...
scala-is-not-enough-like-my-favourite-blub-languagescala-this-is-where-most-questions-should-goscala-questionably-related-tangents scala-tonyclonesscala-internalsscala-mailing-list-name-discussions
:)
</irony>

On 7 October 2011 16:08, Trond Olsen <trond [at] steinbit [dot] org> wrote:
I like scala-theory. Here is my forked modifications.

scala-debate
scala-answers (formerly scala-user)
scala-theory (formerly scala-lang)
scala-internals
scala-rejects (formerly scala-xml)


On 7 October 2011 00:49, Kevin Wright <kev [dot] lee [dot] wright [at] gmail [dot] com> wrote:
Okay, I'll roll with that.  How about:
scala-from-java (formerly scala-user)scala-languagescala-theory (formerly scala-debate)scala-internals
That drops debate (which perhaps sounds a bit confrontational, making people less likely to redirect threads there), and user (which was always a bit uncertain as to whether it should be more or less "advanced" than lang)
Instead, we get names more closely aligned with the types of post expected.


On 6 October 2011 23:27, Simon Ochsenreither <simon [dot] ochsenreither [at] googlemail [dot] com> wrote:
If we really want to different naming lists, then please name the “advanced” one in a way no beginner ever thinks about asking a question there, to reduce the amount of redirects between the lists.

Instead of “scala-advanced” I propose “scala-implicitkleislicomonad”

Imho this measure is simple and effective:When someone understands that the name is only a joke, he has already gained the knowledge level to ask a question there.


Re: Re: The Scala community

Added by anli 2 on 2011-10-07, 16:37

Another forum advantage is a capability to create and modify forums
(categories and subcategories) at any time and at any level of
refinement without affecting forum members at all. Of course it is
possible to subscribe to concrete forum (category), not to concrete
thread only.

We don't need all these long discussions about MLs' naming at all
would we have official forum ;-)

On Friday 07 October 2011 17:08:07 Trond Olsen wrote:
> I like scala-theory. Here is my forked modifications.
>
> scala-debate
> scala-answers (formerly scala-user)
> scala-theory (formerly scala-lang)
> scala-internals
> scala-rejects (formerly scala-xml)
>
>
> On 7 October 2011 00:49, Kevin Wright wrote:
>
> > Okay, I'll roll with that. How about:
> >
> > scala-from-java (formerly scala-user)
> > scala-language
> > scala-theory (formerly scala-debate)
> > scala-internals
> >
> > That drops debate (which perhaps sounds a bit confrontational, making
> > people less likely to redirect threads there), and user (which was always a
> > bit uncertain as to whether it should be more or less "advanced" than lang)
> >
> > Instead, we get names more closely aligned with the types of post expected.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 6 October 2011 23:27, Simon Ochsenreither <
> > simon [dot] ochsenreither [at] googlemail [dot] com> wrote:
> >
> >> If we really want to different naming lists, then please name the
> >> “advanced” one in a way no beginner ever thinks about asking a question
> >> there, to reduce the amount of redirects between the lists.
> >>
> >> Instead of “scala-advanced” I propose “scala-implicitkleislicomonad”
> >>
> >> Imho this measure is simple and effective:When someone understands that
> >> the name is only a joke, he has already gained the knowledge level to ask a
> >> question there.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Kevin Wright
> > mail: kevin [dot] wright [at] scalatechnology [dot] com
> > gtalk / msn : kev [dot] lee [dot] wright [at] gmail [dot] com
> > quora: http://www.quora.com/Kevin-Wright
> > google+: http://gplus.to/thecoda
> >
> > twitter: @thecoda
> > vibe / skype: kev.lee.wright
> > steam: kev_lee_wright
> >
> > "My point today is that, if we wish to count lines of code, we should not
> > regard them as "lines produced" but as "lines spent": the current
> > conventional wisdom is so foolish as to book that count on the wrong side of
> > the ledger" ~ Dijkstra
> >
> >

Re: Re: The Scala community

Added by Markus Jais on 2011-10-06, 21:57
Hi all,
I agree with Bill here. A list for advanced stuff would be great (and I would subscribe in order to learn) but scala-user (or scala-help) couldbe for the more common tasks new developers (particularly those who come from Java, Ruby, C++, Python, etc and want to learn Scala) face.
For example, on scala-user there could be stuff like:- How to effectively copy a file in Scala?- Why is my parallel collection not faster than my non parallel collection?- Why does my actor not respond?
And on scala-advanced stuff like:- How to port this advanced monadic Haskell stuff to Scala?- Who can explain me the details of the inner workings of the Scala collections?

Just my thoughts,
Markus
P.S. I would like to note that the people here in scala-user have been very helpful to me and I've also learned a lot from some really good blog posts out there.


Von: Bill Venners <bill [at] artima [dot] com>
An: scala-user [at] googlegroups [dot] com
Gesendet: 22:09 Donnerstag, 6.Oktober 2011
Betreff: Re: [scala-user] Re: The Scala community

Hi All,

New users come here to scala-users by and large, so I would vote for
creating a scala-advanced list and then encouraging the kinds of
"higher kinded" discussions that intimidate new users off of this list
and onto scala-advanced. It shouldn't offend anyone to ask them to
move something to an "advanced" list. Asking someone to move something
to debate doesn't feel the same. scala-debate to me feels like the
place to ship heated arguments that have gone on too long. Most of the
high end topics that get discussed here aren't heated debates, they
are just unhelpful (and to some extent discouraging) topics for new
users. They are important and useful for more advanced Scala folks,
who I don't think would at all mind joining a list called
scala-advanced.

Bill

On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 12:32 PM, Brian Smith <bmjsmith [at] gmail [dot] com> wrote:
> For those who prefer forums, what's lacking with the google groups forum
> view?
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/scala-user
> On 6 October 2011 17:00, Russel Winder <russel [at] russel [dot] org [dot] uk> wrote:
>>
>> The forum vs. email issue intrudes here.  There are people who like
>> forums and hate email lists and others who hate forums and demand use of
>> email lists.  A good community requires a system that satisfies both
>> varieties of people.
>>
>> On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 08:47 -0700, Cay Horstmann wrote:
>> > I too would favor the move to a forum, but that may take some time. A
>> > scala-advanced list can be done quickly.
>> >
>> > 2011/10/6 Tim Pigden <tim [dot] pigden [at] optrak [dot] com>
>> >         Thinking about format - I reckon forums work better than
>> >         google groups
>> >         in this respect because you can have sticky stuff so newbies
>> >         will
>> >         always see the resource list, the faq list, the instructions
>> >         (please
>> >         use this list only for ...). Maybe this also works in google
>> >         groups
>> >         but it's not particularly obvious. Is there a particular
>> >         advantage in
>> >         google groups?
>> >
>>
>> --
>> Russel.
>>
>> =============================================================================
>> Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip:
>> sip:russel [dot] winder [at] ekiga [dot] net
>> 41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: russel [at] russel [dot] org [dot] uk
>> London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder
>
>



--
Bill Venners
Artima, Inc.
http://www.artima.com


Re: Re: The Scala community

Added by Lex on 2011-10-06, 20:57
Mailing lists cannot be edited like forums. And it's impossible to delete anything. This adds more noise and makes it harder to moderate.

On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 2:32 PM, Brian Smith <bmjsmith [at] gmail [dot] com> wrote:
For those who prefer forums, what's lacking with the google groups forum view?
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/scala-user

Re: The Scala community

Added by Dan Halbert on 2011-10-06, 23:27

[flipped to bottom-posting]
> On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 2:32 PM, Brian Smith wrote:
> > For those who prefer forums, what's lacking with the google groups forum
> > view?
>

On Oct 6, 3:38 pm, Aleksey Nikiforov wrote:
> Mailing lists cannot be edited like forums. And it's impossible to delete
> anything. This adds more noise and makes it harder to moderate.
>
It is possible for Google Groups owners to delete messages.

Also, I see the Scala mailing lists reflected into these forums:
http://www.scala-lang.org/forum
Will posting to these forums go back to the mailing lists?
Mysteriously, I cannot find a link to these forums accessible from the
Scala mailing list page or elsewhere, so I'm not sure whether they are
deprecated or undesirable in some way.

Dan

Re: The Scala community

Added by Philippe Lhoste on 2011-10-06, 17:37

On 06/10/2011 18:00, Russel Winder wrote:
> The forum vs. email issue intrudes here. There are people who like
> forums and hate email lists and others who hate forums and demand use of
> email lists. A good community requires a system that satisfies both
> varieties of people.

Gradle have put up a forum, with exactly these reactions in the mailing list...
They have set up an e-mail notification system for the e-mail lovers.

I believe forums are well suited to beginners (easy to search/read old threads, more
familiar interface, etc.) while MLs are more used by seasoned users.
Of course, this categorization isn't absolute!

Re: Re: The Scala community

Added by dcsobral on 2011-10-06, 20:37

On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 13:13, Philippe Lhoste wrote:
> On 06/10/2011 18:00, Russel Winder wrote:
>>
>> The forum vs. email issue intrudes here.  There are people who like
>> forums and hate email lists and others who hate forums and demand use of
>> email lists.  A good community requires a system that satisfies both
>> varieties of people.
>
> Gradle have put up a forum, with exactly these reactions in the mailing
> list...
> They have set up an e-mail notification system for the e-mail lovers.

A "notification system"? You mean, like, "oh, there's new stuff on the
forums"? Ugh.

Disclaimer: I've used some form or other of e-mail for some 25 years
now. First, BBS (which worked either like a forum or a webmail), then
Bitnet, then Internet. My own personal experience is:

* I never use forums. The sole exception seems to be reading the
occasional flamewar on some Ars Technica articles (through e-mail
notifications).
* I subscribe to tons of mailing lists. When I have time, I read them.
When I don't, I mark the messages as read. The Scala mailing lists
mostly fall into the category "read everything".

Given that, a move to a forum format would mean I'd cease to be an
active member of the community (for this medium, anyway). Even with
notifications.

Re: Re: The Scala community

Added by Brian Clapper 2 on 2011-10-06, 20:47

On 10/06/2011 03:22 PM, Daniel Sobral wrote:

> A "notification system"? You mean, like, "oh, there's new stuff on the
> forums"? Ugh.
>
> Disclaimer: I've used some form or other of e-mail for some 25 years
> now. First, BBS (which worked either like a forum or a webmail), then
> Bitnet, then Internet. My own personal experience is:
>
> * I never use forums. The sole exception seems to be reading the
> occasional flamewar on some Ars Technica articles (through e-mail
> notifications).
> * I subscribe to tons of mailing lists. When I have time, I read them.
> When I don't, I mark the messages as read. The Scala mailing lists
> mostly fall into the category "read everything".
>
> Given that, a move to a forum format would mean I'd cease to be an
> active member of the community (for this medium, anyway). Even with
> notifications.

+1.

How is a forum materially different from what Google Groups already provides?

Re: The Scala community

Added by Philippe Lhoste on 2011-10-07, 15:47

On 06/10/2011 21:31, Brian Clapper wrote:
> How is a forum materially different from what Google Groups already provides?

Among other things, a more uniform (default) style (I dislike HTML e-mails with abuse of
styles, although one can go crazy with BBCode...), the capability to edit to remove typos
or stupid things, the capability to moderate and remove spam or off-topic messages, and
for the scrupulous, to move topics between sections (eg. from scala-debate to
scala-language for a real technical question, or from scala-language to scala-users for a
naive, simple question, or questions about IDEs to scala-tools, etc.).

One nice thing, in well made forums, is to memorize which topics you have read: you can
start reading at work, and resume at home. When doing that with the mailing lists, I have
to go from thread mode to chronological mode (in Thunderbird), select a time range and
mark as read.

But I do appreciate mailing lists as well: messages coming to you even if you don't do
anything, automatically archived, fast interface (when Thunderbird doesn't fetch new
messages. They don't know about threading?) with keyboard shortcuts, etc.
Different interfaces, different ways of doing things.

Re: Re: The Scala community

Added by Russel Winder 2 on 2011-10-06, 19:17

On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 18:13 +0200, Philippe Lhoste wrote:
> On 06/10/2011 18:00, Russel Winder wrote:
> > The forum vs. email issue intrudes here. There are people who like
> > forums and hate email lists and others who hate forums and demand use of
> > email lists. A good community requires a system that satisfies both
> > varieties of people.
>
> Gradle have put up a forum, with exactly these reactions in the mailing list...
> They have set up an e-mail notification system for the e-mail lovers.

Indeed, and I am one of the people shouting from the rooftops :-)

> I believe forums are well suited to beginners (easy to search/read old threads, more
> familiar interface, etc.) while MLs are more used by seasoned users.
> Of course, this categorization isn't absolute!

I am not sure I agree with that categorization, but I do agree that
there are two camps that both need to be handled, and GetSatisfaction
clearly does not satisfy.

Re: The Scala community

Added by Philippe Lhoste on 2011-10-07, 15:57

On 06/10/2011 20:12, Russel Winder wrote:
>> I believe forums are well suited to beginners (easy to search/read old threads, more
>> familiar interface, etc.) while MLs are more used by seasoned users.
>> Of course, this categorization isn't absolute!
>
> I am not sure I agree with that categorization, but I do agree that
> there are two camps that both need to be handled, and GetSatisfaction
> clearly does not satisfy.

Of course, it is quite arbitrary, mostly based on my experience in AutoHotkey and
Processing forums (frequented enough to get the status of moderator on them...) vs. my
reading of Scintilla/SciTE, Lua, Bazaar, Scala-* & Gradle mailing lists, among others.
I also saw this debate on the Lua mailing list...

Both Lua and Scala have forums already (someone mentioned http://scala-forum.org/ in
scala-debate), but they don't seem to attract many people...

RE: Re: The Scala community

Added by Razvan Cojocaru 3 on 2011-10-06, 17:17

A mailing list is just basically a notification of all new activity in a forum. Growth is good, but this list in this form has become too time consuming to follow, for me at least. I delete days a time sometimes...

I vote forum. I would setup one but then someone from scala-lang.org would do it and then my efforts would be wasted - why not skip that debate and have someone setup a forum.scala-lang.org? with moderators and everything...

With something like pphb3 or whatever it's called, It's easy... I think it allows posts via "reply" or if not we can find one that does, so people on the move can easily work it as well....

In fact, a combination wiki-forum is what would be best. Haven't seen a great one yet. Seeing all these good explanations here go to waste - it saddens me.

Anyways, the-right-one-for-the-job will eventually figure it out... it's called evolution...

-----Original Message-----
From: scala-user [at] googlegroups [dot] com [mailto:scala-user [at] googlegroups [dot] com] On Behalf Of Russel Winder
Sent: October-06-11 12:01 PM
To: Cay Horstmann
Cc: Tim Pigden; Maxime Lévesque; Alex Repain; Jefferson Andrade; Chris Marshall; philho [at] gmx [dot] net; scala-user [at] googlegroups [dot] com
Subject: Re: [scala-user] Re: The Scala community

The forum vs. email issue intrudes here. There are people who like forums and hate email lists and others who hate forums and demand use of email lists. A good community requires a system that satisfies both varieties of people.

On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 08:47 -0700, Cay Horstmann wrote:
> I too would favor the move to a forum, but that may take some time. A
> scala-advanced list can be done quickly.
>
> 2011/10/6 Tim Pigden
> Thinking about format - I reckon forums work better than
> google groups
> in this respect because you can have sticky stuff so newbies
> will
> always see the resource list, the faq list, the instructions
> (please
> use this list only for ...). Maybe this also works in google
> groups
> but it's not particularly obvious. Is there a particular
> advantage in
> google groups?
>

--
Russel.
=============================================================================
Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: sip:russel [dot] winder [at] ekiga [dot] net
41 Buckmaster Road m: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: russel [at] russel [dot] org [dot] uk
London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder

Re: The Scala community

Added by dcsobral on 2011-10-06, 13:37

On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 06:30, Tim Pigden wrote:
> I think there's a fundamental problem with this list and its contents,
> from that perspective: most of the questions here and certainly most
> of the debate and the answers are in the esoteric/academic camp. There
> are relatively few "pragmatic" questions but those that do exist tend
> to be answered quite quickly and helpfully. So in terms of helping
> newbies, the list functions quite effectively - certainly I received
> help when required.
>
> The problem is that if you just scan the list as a newbie, most of the
> questions are incomprehensible, let alone the answers.
>
> I don't know whether it would work, but what about splitting the list
> - maybe "scala-advanced" and "scala-help" or something like that? It
> might work  as long as a few of you (helpful) experts out there were
> prepared to hang around in the scala-help list

There's scala-debate and scala-language for more advanced stuff. Or,
at least, that's the way I see it.

Scala-user should be for "Hey, I'm a user, I need help with X", "Ok,
here's how you do/what you need to know about X".

Re: The Scala community

Added by Alan Burlison on 2011-10-06, 11:37

On 06/10/2011 10:30, Tim Pigden wrote:

> I don't know whether it would work, but what about splitting the list
> - maybe "scala-advanced" and "scala-help" or something like that? It
> might work as long as a few of you (helpful) experts out there were
> prepared to hang around in the scala-help list

I believe scala-debate (as Martin pointed out) is already available for
such discussions, and scala-user is supposed to be for the "how do I?"
questions.

Re: The Scala community

Added by Alex Repain on 2011-10-06, 11:27


2011/10/6 Tim Pigden <tim [dot] pigden [at] optrak [dot] com>
I think there's a fundamental problem with this list and its contents,
from that perspective: most of the questions here and certainly most
of the debate and the answers are in the esoteric/academic camp. There
are relatively few "pragmatic" questions but those that do exist tend
to be answered quite quickly and helpfully. So in terms of helping
newbies, the list functions quite effectively - certainly I received
help when required.

The problem is that if you just scan the list as a newbie, most of the
questions are incomprehensible, let alone the answers.

I don't know whether it would work, but what about splitting the list
- maybe "scala-advanced" and "scala-help" or something like that? It
might work  as long as a few of you (helpful) experts out there were
prepared to hang around in the scala-help list

In a totally unrelated field, I had the occasion to experiment the dissociation advanced / beginner within the frame of an online help/learning forum. It works great. Newbies don't feel ashamed to ask their questions in the beginner's list, and don't fear to read the answers.  The only thing to remind them frequently is that questions may have already been posted and answered before, as always. 

Besides, tensions are lessened by the theoretical segregation it provides : techboys won't get pissed off by Tony's views that much because they won't see them, and Tony won't get pissed off by techies either (ideal world) because they will be warned that scala-advanced is a wild jungle with strange beasts (no offense intended!). People who will WANT to explore Scala in depth, through advanced computer science topics and advanced compiler stuff will be able to do so when they feel curious/in need/ready to do so.



Tim


On 6 October 2011 10:19, Dennis Haupt <h-star [at] gmx [dot] de> wrote:
> to pour in my experience:
> * the community was mostly helpful to me. in most cases, i got some academic and some pragmatic answers. the pragmatic ones are the ones i wanted and needed at first.
> later, as my understanding grew, the academic ones became more interesting.
>
> * my biggest obstacle when learning scala coming from java were to understand "method signature rampages". immutable datastructures where quite easy, the collections were easy to use, and closures were easy to understand.
>
> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
>> Datum: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 00:56:41 -0700 (PDT)
>> Von: martin <odersky [at] gmail [dot] com>
>> An: scala-user [at] googlegroups [dot] com
>> Betreff: [scala-user] The Scala community
>
>>
>>
>> Here's a recent mail on reddit, which we should take very seriously.
>>
>> I agree with the points in the mail. I think the community has a major job
>> to do to help people get into the language instead being obscure and
>> riding
>> academic high horses.
>>
>> I would like to start with this list. Please everyone, remember: This list
>> is for helping people getting into Scala and getting their questions
>> answered. That's the primary purpose of scala-user. If you are after
>> intellectual arguments, no problem, but please use scala-debate. If you
>> want
>> to force an intellectual argument on a newbie that asked a simple
>> question,
>> that's just bad style.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>  -- Martin
>>
>> =======================================================================
>>
>> I tried to use Scala, and found it has one major disadvantage going for
>> it,
>> the community.
>>
>> Most of the developers for Scala and community members I interacted with
>> were very focused on being right from a computer science perspective, and
>> from their own view on how things should be done. They were not at all
>> focused on helping developers actually get work done. This extended to the
>> libraries that come with Scala. If they didn't like how you did something,
>> they made the libraries much harder to accomplish that task with. As an
>> example, appending to a list requires a rather cryptic syntax (myList :::=
>> "something").
>>
>> Along with that, Scala seems to be in love with symbols. They use them
>> everywhere, and many times portions of the syntax are optional, so you can
>> see different incarnations of the same syntax look very different in
>> different places.
>>
>> Also Scala has a very high learning curve for traditional Java developers.
>> Instead of making this curve workable by gradually introducing developers
>> to
>> advanced features, the Scala libraries and all it's documentation force
>> you
>> to see all the concepts all at once. They often do a very poor job of
>> explaining why they force you to do things their way, and just tell you to
>> do them.
>>
>> While the Scala language technically lets you program in a way similar to
>> Java, but with advanced features as needed, the libraries are written in a
>> way to make this nearly impossible.
>>
>> What all this means is that a developer from any traditional OOP language,
>> or less complex language is going to have a very very hard time learning
>> Scala, and in the end the time you lost learning won't make up for any
>> advantage Scala's 'way' provides.
>>
>> As long as the Scala community is so obtuse and focused on being right
>> their
>> way, as opposed to helping developers get into the language, Scala will
>> remain a nitch language.
>



--
Tim Pigden
Optrak Distribution Software Limited
+44 (0)1992 517100
http://www.linkedin.com/in/timpigden
http://optrak.com
Optrak Distribution Software Ltd is a limited company registered in
England and Wales.
Company Registration No. 2327613 Registered Offices: Orland House,
Mead Lane, Hertford, SG13 7AT England
This email and any attachments to it may be confidential and are
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Any views or opinions expressed are solely those of the author and do
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If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you must neither
take any action based upon its contents, nor copy or show it to
anyone. Please contact the sender if you believe you have received
this email in error.



--
Alex REPAIN
ENSEIRB-MATMECA - student
TECHNICOLOR R&D - intern
BORDEAUX I      - master's student
SCALA           - enthusiast


Re: The Scala community

Added by anli 2 on 2011-10-06, 11:57

On Thursday 06 October 2011 12:20:41 Alex Repain wrote:
> ... within the frame of an online help/learning forum. It works great.

I agree a good forum engine (phpBB, vBulletin, ...) is much more handy form
for... forum :-) To my taste it isn't even comparable with ML/Google Group.
I will not list all the advantages - everyone participated in any forum can
compose own infinite list.

OTOH forum software running will probably demand more administrative resources
from Scala team rather ML. But it would be the only forum instead of multiple
MLs.

Andrew

Re: The Scala community

Added by Jason Zaugg on 2011-10-06, 12:17
On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 12:39 PM, Andrew Gaydenko <andrew [dot] gaydenko [at] gmail [dot] com> wrote:
On Thursday 06 October 2011 12:20:41 Alex Repain wrote:
> ... within the frame of an online help/learning forum. It works great.

I agree a good forum engine (phpBB, vBulletin, ...) is much more handy form
for... forum :-) To my taste it isn't even comparable with ML/Google Group.
I will not list all the advantages - everyone participated in any forum can
compose own infinite list.

OTOH forum software running will probably demand more administrative resources
from Scala team rather ML. But it would be the only forum instead of multiple
MLs.

There are close to 6000 questions on StackOverflow.
A new addition is a nicely curated landing page that can be used to explore the archives:
  http://stackoverflow.com/tags/scala/info 
-jason

Re: The Scala community

Added by Alan Burlison on 2011-10-06, 12:27

On 06/10/2011 12:00, Jason Zaugg wrote:

> There are close to 6000 questions on StackOverflow.
>
> A new addition is a nicely curated landing page that can be used to explore
> the archives:

I agree - I've found the Scala content on SO useful and I've added
http://stackoverflow.com/feeds/tag?tagnames=scala&sort=newest to my RSS
feed - I'm finding reading the daily stream of questions and answers is
helping sediment things into my head.

Re: The Scala community

Added by Tim P on 2011-10-06, 12:47

i'm not even looking at stack overflow atm. Why do we "have" 2 similar lists?

On 6 October 2011 12:18, Alan Burlison wrote:
> On 06/10/2011 12:00, Jason Zaugg wrote:
>
>> There are close to 6000 questions on StackOverflow.
>>
>> A new addition is a nicely curated landing page that can be used to
>> explore
>> the archives:
>
> I agree - I've found the Scala content on SO useful and I've added
> http://stackoverflow.com/feeds/tag?tagnames=scala&sort=newest to my RSS feed
> - I'm finding reading the daily stream of questions and answers is helping
> sediment things into my head.
>
> --
> Alan Burlison
> --
>

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